Who do you know playing Wooff sets ?

[Ted]

Eddie Nolan in Waterford has just gotten a D set made for a bloke in California that never played them. Glad they are where they are appreciated.

While in Clare, I visited the shop of Geoff's former apprentice, Derrick Gleeson. He was well trained and is a superb craftsman. The day I left, Blackie O'Connell was coming to pick up a C chanter. It was wonderful. The sets are based on Geoff's bores. The level of craftmanship, tuning and voicing are well up the standards of Wooff. He has it all well down. I would be glad to have one of his sets as easily as one of Geoff's, and they are available. You never see a set of Wooff's for sale, except the D sets. Call him a Wooff clone if you will, but that is a compliment, rather than a slagging. He only has a two year wait list at this point, but that will only get longer as more see and get to play his sets.

Geoff only makes four sets a year, as does David Quinn, who may have made five sets one year. Geoff does some repairs on his older stuff and the odd chanter only as well. David also does a few chanters and may have made five sets in one year. 17 sets a year is ludicrous. They both work six day weeks and often work into the night. Their stuff is great value for the money. Neither are getting wealthy and could make more money working for someone else. We are all better of because of their and Derricks devotion to the instrument.

[rorybbellows]

David also does a few chanters and may have made five sets in one year. 17 sets a year is ludicrous.

I know, I would have thought that as well.but in an interview on the source (NPU site) David states that he makes about nine sets a year and in one particular year made 17.

RORY

[Jarlath.I]

I wonder if it was 17 sets completed rather than 17 sets made. If he had a number of sets in various stages of completion, and then cleaned them all up, that would make more sense.

[Ted]

David said back in the 70's or early 80's, before he knows what he knows now, he made 17 sets, mostly practice sets and half sets and some chanters in one year. The present output of his and Benedict's is 7 or 8 sets a year, with David doing the manufacturing, incl. turning and keys etc., with Benedict reeding, tuning and voicing the sets. They each turn out a few chanters and Benedict has made full sets as well. That compares with Wooff and Gleeson at four sets a year, plus repairs and the occasional chanter. At four sets a year, at say $12,500 per set is $50,000 per year. There are materials and tooling costs as well, so I don't see them getting wealthy. A top craftsman in other trades makes more than that. For the quality of work and the materials used, pipes from the top makers are still a bargain.

[Ted]

Michael Gravina, now in England had a narrow bore D in boxwood. He may have sold it. Any ifo. on that?

[Mr.Gumby]

It was sold and re-sold some time ago. He had varnished it and scalloped the holes on the chanter. see here

Another D chanter up for sale recently had been subjected to non original scalloping of the holes as well.

[uillmann]

At four sets a year, at say $12,500 per set is $50,000 per year. There are materials and tooling costs as well, so I don't see them getting wealthy. A top craftsman in other trades makes more than that. For the quality of work and the materials used, pipes from the top makers are still a bargain.

Quite true, Ted. And materials and tools are not cheap - not by a long shot. On an hourly basis, performing and teaching provides a better income than pipemaking. If you have enough gigs and students, you can do very well indeed. It became painfully obvious to me years ago, when I realized I made more money in a recording studio in a few hours than I made in a week in the shop.

[rorybbellows]

At four sets a year, at say $12,500 per set is $50,000 per year. .

Quite true, Ted. And materials and tools are not cheap - not by a long shot. On an hourly basis, performing and teaching provides a better income than pipemaking. If you have enough gigs and students, you can do very well indeed. It became painfully obvious to me years ago, when I realized I made more money in a recording studio in a few hours than I made in a week in the shop.

Yea! but at ten sets a year ,thats $125,000, thats two and a half grand a week. Sounds OK to me .Whats the adverage wage in the US. In Ireland $2500 (1950 euro) a week would be a very good wage indeed ,even with the expense's mentioned.

RORY

[Ted]

Who is making ten sets a year? $12,500 is a figure I made up, but close to the price from the top makers. Four sets a year is their output. Where does 10 sets a year come from?

[uillmann]

Ten sets a year? Not bloody likely. Even if you could make them, you couldn't sell them, especially these days. In the '80's, there were only a handful of makers in the world. Nowadays there may be a hundred, and the vast majority of them are little more than hobbyists. The reality is that there simply isn't a market for that many expensive sets. My guess is that, eventually, some bright MIT student with a penchant for trad, a keen sense of marketing, and a working knowledge of futuristic manufacturing techniques will come up with a design that is both affordable and dependable. They will be able to build fully functional pipes, and build them cheaply, (and in unlimited quantities, to boot.) If and when that happens, the most desirable sets of today's master builders will become unaffordable for musical artists. The market in historic sets will become the playground of superstar pipers, collectors, and wealthy dabblers. Poorer artists will soldier on with whatever works, be it assorted older crap, or newer plastic stuff that people will eventually come to accept, (and bemoan.) Fine traditional sets won't ever be built in any significant number.

[giles b]

I have a Wooff B set, was the one made after Pat Darcy's. I play it regularly. Pat Lyons has a Bflat set that gets regular playing. I know a fellow in Western Victoria who has an old Bflat set that he plays regularly. There are a couple of sets in New South Wales that get played regularly. That's 5 I know of without too much thinking. There are loads of pipers who don't appear on this forum.

[rorybbellows]

Who is making ten sets a year? $12,500 is a figure I made up, but close to the price from the top makers. Four sets a year is their output. Where does 10 sets a year come from?

Out of the workshop of David Quinn. If you take a look at the interview with Mr Quinn on the NPU website , I think its around the twenty minute mark, he says that he has just sent out that year set number nine,which means he is now working on set number ten. Now I dont think Mr Quinn would be telling an untruth, so you either take his word for it or ignore it and make up your own figures.

Ten sets a year? Not bloody likely. Even if you could make them, you couldn't sell them, especially these days. In the '80's, there were only a handful of makers in the world. Nowadays there may be a hundred, and the vast majority of them are little more than hobbyists. The reality is that there simply isn't a market for that many expensive sets.

I dont think its fair to apply your own experiences as a pipemaker to other pipemakers.
In a another thread Geoff Wooff says he has 100 pipers waiting for sets and other makers have either closed their books or have long waiting times.
I like your prediction of future pipemaking, it reminds me of that famous prediction by some prefessor who said that in the future ,personnal computers will be so expensive that only the two richest kings will own one.

I have a Wooff B set, was the one made after Pat Darcy's. I play it regularly. Pat Lyons has a Bflat set that gets regular playing. I know a fellow in Western Victoria who has an old Bflat set that he plays regularly. There are a couple of sets in New South Wales that get played regularly. That's 5 I know of without too much thinking. There are loads of pipers who don't appear on this forum.

I would think Geoff would happy to hear that theres alot more than two dozen of his sets being played.

RORY

[uillmann]

I dont think its fair to apply your own experiences as a pipemaker to other pipemakers.

RORY

I placed myself squarely in the hobbyist camp. I don't think I would want a set that took 4 or 5 weeks to build.
How many makers have a hundred sets on back order? 2 or 3? Thats a few hundred sets, not what I would call a huge demand.
Fortunately for all of us, the best pipes are getting better and better, thanks to the dedication of those rare individuals who possess the required artistry, ear, skills, knowledge, discipline, and perseverance. And it takes each and every one of those traits to be a great pipemaker.

[PJ]

I like your prediction of future pipemaking, it reminds me of that famous prediction by some prefessor who said that in the future ,personnal computers will be so expensive that only the two richest kings will own one.

Not exactly...

[billh]

Who is making ten sets a year?...

Out of the workshop of David Quinn. If you take a look at the interview with Mr Quinn on the NPU website , I think its around the twenty minute mark, he says that he has just sent out that year set number nine,which means he is now working on set number ten.

RORY

Remember that these sets have to feed Benedict Koehler as well - though BK does make a few sets on his own these days. David takes pains to point out that all the sets constructed in the Quinn workshop are joint efforts*. It's also far from clear that K&Q sets have been averaging as high a price as Ted mentions - though they are clearly worth it if they do. To take another example, the Rogge workshop has a much higher output but the prices are a tad lower, excepting 'master sets', and again there are many more mouths to feed. Geoff Wooff's stated output of 4 or 5 sets per year is optimistic, though his prices may be a tad higher these days.

When I do the math it still comes out to 4 or 5 sets per year per master pipemaker - maybe the number can be nudged upwards by one or two. I think that one would be doing very well to clear $10K per set when expenses are taken into account - and we're talking about makers at the very top of their field.

It beats digging ditches, or working in food service, but when you consider the lean years before one can charge top money - assuming one ever builds the kind of reputation required - it's lean enough all the same. I don't believe any pipemaker has ever made near the figure Rory fielded - and I doubt any one individual is getting half that on a regular basis.

- Bill

*(excepting David's personal set, that is - he still reeds and voices his own pipes)