Should I attempt bellows surgery?

[Hans-Joerg]

"Well processed tallow is an excellent way to dilute beeswax. In fact, tallow is far more effective when trying to season or treat leather.

Doesn´t tallow (being an animal "product") start smelling after some time? What´s your long term experience?
Hans

[Cayden]

..uh..you're kidding,right Peter? Olive oil is a VERY fragile vegetable oil that VERY quickly breaks down into it's component sugars and will SMELL hideously......as a hard working piper, the underarm smells bad enough as it is!

I have seasoned bellows at Geoff Wooff's workshop with olive oil and beeswax in the past and never had any problem. My own bag and bellows were seasoned with the stuff 20 years a go and while they spat out a few lumps of wax in the first few weeks there has never been any problem or leak since. It's tried and tested.

[Jim]

In reference to Peters' comment. The instuctions that came with my Olwell bamboo flute recommend using olive oil to swab the bore. If the maker of the flute intends its use in long term maintenance, I can't see a problem with using it as a component for seasoning.

[nadav]

I use olive oil in my salad, and that does not smell.
further more, i do not like the smell of oranges, so i would suggest to any of the pipers here not to use oranges oil.

[Nanohedron]

I use olive oil in my salad, and that does not smell.
further more, i do not like the smell of oranges, so i would suggest to any of the pipers here not to use oranges oil.

Orange oil - and citrus oil in general - is volatile, and that's what makes it a good cleaning agent, but of itself it doesn't have the viscosity to serve for the purposes discussed here. Take an orange peel sometime and give it a squeeze to spray its oils at an open flame, and you'll see what I mean. Cheap fun for pyromaniacs.

[simonknight]

Fox Bassoon's technician has published a white paper on oiling bores:

http://www.foxproducts.com/pdfs/BassoonBoreOiling.pdf

He has some strong (negative) opinions on olive oil. Overall it's hard to find a consensus on oils for bores or seasoning.

I used pure neatsfoot oil with beeswax to season a bag and had no problems with smell or oil bleeding through to the outside. The mixture set pretty well.

[Joseph E. Smith]

Take an orange peel sometime and give it a squeeze to spray its oils at an open flame, and you'll see what I mean. Cheap fun for pyromaniacs.

... now I have to shave off my chin whiskers....

[BzzzzT]

I have a friend who used 2 parts Murphy's oil soap and 1 part crisco as an airtight seasoning with excellent results on their bag. He said it did not bleed through the leather or get nasty. My bellows was sealed with Hardie's airtight and so far after 8 years it is still good.

[reedbiter]

Well Peter, the tears in the eyes of the fiddle player next to you might not be a coincidence...
likely a very small amount was used as a medium to carry the melted beeswax. A quick perusal of a bottle of olive oil will reveal all sorts of preservatives and additives. The minimum and even fine/expensive oils have some added sugars and alcohol. None of which are good for leather.
Tallow doesn't actually smell when it's been processed correctly (slowly, low heat, and strained 3 or 4 times to remove all meat). It's an excellent leather sealer, treater...works GREAT as a lip balm and hand lotion as well! I'd put my mixture up against your stinky stuff in a blind fold (and nose plugged) test any day! C'mon, bring it on!

[Cayden]

Well fine use tallow if you like. I don't mind.


EU food regulations are quite strict by the way with regard to additives. The three bottles of olive oil I have sitting here all list zero sugar content and no additives.

For about the same discussion see this thread

[andymay]

2 parts Murphy's oil soap and 1 part crisco?

Where can one get these exotic-sounding ingredients?

Does it work on bags both normal-ways and inside-out?

No mess coming through to the outside sounds almost too good to be true!!

AM

[seisflutes]

Thanks everyone, for all the advice! I haven't had a chance to read through all of it, but I will as soon as possible, and think it over.

[BzzzzT]

2 parts Murphy's oil soap and 1 part crisco?

Where can one get these exotic-sounding ingredients?

Does it work on bags both normal-ways and inside-out?

No mess coming through to the outside sounds almost too good to be true!!

AM

Hi Andy

I did a search for it on the forum and found this thread that gives more info.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... s+oil+soap


The seasoning was invented by Royce. I have a friend who used it and he said it worked like a charm, with no stuff seeping outside the bag. The ladies will also dig your sweet smelling pipes

- Jason

[seisflutes]

Is the leather itself leaking or are the seams of the bellows leaking?

Yes, both.

IMO it can be tricky to re-leather a tacked bellows. Often the tacks will have started splits etc. in the bellows edge, so either you have to get them back into the old holes, or the problem (edge integrity) could get worse. Stapled gussets are possibly not such a problem. It depends a bit on whether the tacks are fat triangular-pronged ones or upholstery tacks with thinner prongs - the latter are less prone to weaken the wood.

I agree that the leather sounds pretty shot. I don't think a vinyl barrier will help much but you could try using a layer of thinned barge cement to glue the old leather to a new thin leather on the inside, rough-surface-to-rough (producing a "double skinned" gusset). That would solve the "leaking through the leather" issue, but then you still have the leaks around the paddles, which may be harder to sort out if the old nail holes have weakened them.

Worst case is you end up with no bellows at all for awhile, so you might want to figure out your Plan B before making the attempt.

Not so sure about 'oiling the leather' - IMO it should be necessary only rarely if at all. Some oils can weaken the glue bond, uh-oh!

Bill

[edited to add: Kelly, given the fact that the bellows has been seasoned before, I agree with Jim and I think his suggestion is well worth a try.]

Kelly,

If seasoning worked once it may work again.

I'd try the following

Remove the tacks from the bellows. Also remove the hinge.

Using a heavy duty stapler, and heavy duty 3/8” staples, staple around the perimeter of the clappers including the hinge area. Try to leave as little space as possible between the staples. (This should help if the wood is too saturated with oil from the previous seasoning)

Use a hammer to lightly tap the staples in so they are indented into the leather.

You can go to any fabric/yard goods store to buy replacement trim and contact cement it over the staples.

Re-season. After you mix up your seasoning, let it cool to room temperature. It should be the consistency of very thick vaseline. If it is too thin, add more beeswax. (Too thin and it won’t clog up the leaks around the gusset and cause the wet look) Re-heat seasoning in a water bath, remove the valve and pour about a half cup of seasoning through the opening.

Plug the outlet and valve opening and put pressure on the bellows. Keeping pressure on the bellows, rotate the bellows so that the seasoning flows along the joint where the leather meets the wooden clappers. Try to work any remaining seasoning in the bellows into the gusset. Re-apply pressure to force the seasoning into the gusset.

Jim

Hmm, I like both of these suggestions. I don't know which to go with, or if I should just completely replace the leather. There is a place in town that sells all sorts of leather, I'm sure I could find something good there.
I guess I'll start with Jim's suggestion and see how it goes. Thanks again guys!

[Dionys]

Olive oil and beeswax works well enough. I've used Lanolin (get *pure* lanolin) and beeswax to good result as well, though it's more viscous and not as easy.

I'd secure an alternative set of bellows if your bellows go south, or if you decide to take apart your bellows. If it's not imperative that you do it soon, you might consider building your own set of bellows (either from scratch or from a Dow kit or someone else's kit) to get a really good idea of how they're put together and what spots are tricky to finish/repair.

If you do the resealing, don't forget (I know it's obvious, but it's easy to forget) to remove your blowpipe & inlet bits. I've had to replace those for a few people who've done wrong to their bellows.

Good luck! Think of it as a learning experience and you'll be fine!

Dionys