chanter can change by fitting keys ?

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rorybbellows
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Post by rorybbellows »

billh wrote:
rorybbellows wrote:I would think it would depend on who,s doing the work !.A good pipemaker would under stand what effect the new holes will have and be able to counter-act any negative effect.

RORY
:lol: :lol: :lol:

ROTFL

Things are not nearly that simple! I would be surprised to find a modern pipemaker who could explain the specific effect new holes have on their own chanters, let along someone else's!
I am surprised you feel that way !!!! I know when Steve Scales was having his chanter fitted with keys (from 1 to 5) Alain Froment explained to him exactly what would happen and how he keep everything all right .Steve reckons the chanter is now better than it was before !!


RORY
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rorybbellows
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Post by rorybbellows »

Bill , I,m very curious about your statement,are you saying that the pipemakers that you know or have talked to ,when they fit keys to their chanters that they don’t really know what they are doing
Maybe I ,ve got it wrong ,could you clarify your statement !

RORY
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Post by billh »

I reckon a good pipemaker will have learned from experience what to expect when adding keys to one of his own chanter designs (if in fact the maker attempts to add toneholes to an already-voiced chanter - some makers may decline to do so). In this respect a maker who pays close attention will indeed "know what he is doing", and I assume Alain has a good knowledge, based in experience, of what happens when keys are added to his design. (I would still be surprised - though happily - if Alain could "explain" this satisfactorily from a theoretical/acoustical perspective... not that it matters!)

Generalizing from that experience to another maker's chanter design is where I think one begins to operate in the dark. The acoustics of chanters is sufficiently interrelated/complex[*], and chanter designs sufficiently diverse, that it would not be wise to assume that what works for one "Rowesome" design (for instance) will work for another.

A sufficiently sophisticated computer program may be able to predict the effects to some extent (even though all the woodwind acoustical models I am aware of contain substantial simplifications/assumptions). But the only person I know of who has applied any kind of acoustical model capable of predicting the effect of bore perturbations is Craig Fischer, and even his model was limited to the first couple of harmonics (and did not account for turbulent flow or other nonlinear effects). Furthermore, this model only predicted the effect on tuning, and might not be a good predictor of the impact of perturbations on clarity of attack or stability of particular notes (e.g.one might fail to predict an effect on bottom D stability with such a model). And of course, to use such a computer model, one must provide detailed bore measurements as input, since the results are specific to a particular bore profile.

For these reasons I am sceptical of anyone who claims to "understand" (in a predictive sense) the effect of adding toneholes to a chanter design with which they do not have direct prior experience.

Bill

[*] p.s. - Actually, the equations are not terrible complex, but they are difficult to solve - basically they can be expressed as various integrals over the length of the bore, which mathematically supports the observed phenomenon that "everything affects everything else". A new tonehole, acting as a localized expansion of the bore, alters the waveform of every harmonic of every note below it in the bore (and to a smaller extent even alters the waveforms of notes 'above' it, for single-tonehole notes like d, C#, A, and F#).
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rorybbellows
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Post by rorybbellows »

Thanks Bill
Do you think the master pipemakers of the past were any more aware of acoustical theory than modern makers ?

RORY
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Post by billh »

rorybbellows wrote:Thanks Bill
Do you think the master pipemakers of the past were any more aware of acoustical theory than modern makers ?

RORY
Well, two of the landmarks of musical acoustics, Herrmann Helmholtz' On The Sensation of Tone, and Arthur Benade's Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics, were published in 1863 and 1976, respectively - so the 18th and 19th century makers could hardly have possessed such theoretical knowledge. What theory they might have been aware of is unlikely to have been of great practical importance - possibly it could have assisted them in creating instruments in new pitches, but it is hard to say.

Then again, I don't think many contemporary pipemakers have a strong theoretical bent either.

Current theory only gets you so far, anyway - it has explanatory power, but only weak predictive power, which is what you want from a practical viewpoint. A good theoretical grounding can, however, help prevent a pipemaker from "inventing" his own (erroneous!) theories of acoustics based on limited data - I've seen these sorts of theoretical "explanations" from pipemakers from time to time, and they are usually demonstrably wrong from a modern scientific perspective.

There's a tendancy to think of engineering (or 'technics', of which instrument making could be considered a variety) as being closely related to, or even following from, science. But this has only been true in the past few decades, and even now is only true in a few areas of engineering (say, nuclear reactors, semiconductor physics, or nanotechnology). For most of history and in most fields, technology has owed almost nothing to its contemporary science. Take, for instance, metallurgy - almost every metal alloy and technique was known centuries or even millennia before science could explain the effects, and it's only in very recent years that it has been possible to predict the effect of adding particular alloying materials to metal. Before that, the watchwords of engineering were "try it and see".

The old master instrument makers certainly were excellent craftsmen and most likely had a very long tradition of technique and experience behind them - which was handed down in a traditional manner. One of the most interesting questions in the history of the Irish/Union pipes has to do with where the expertise required to make such a sophisticated bore as the Union/Pastoral chanter originated - i.e. what was the precedent? It has been suggested that the oboe-making tradition furnished the prior art (at that time - early 18th century - this would have been the "Baroque" oboe).

Instrument making tends to be a conservative craft - witness the violin, whose design reached such a sophisticated state by the late 1500's/early 1600's that those instruments are regarded as the ultimate even today; every now and then someone creates an "improved" violin using modern acoustical theory, but those new designs never seem to catch on.

I do think, however, that every master craftsman has some conceptual framework for his craft; in that respect every instrument maker is likely to have some "theory" of how the instrument works, even if that theory is not based on current science. Knowing a bit more about how the 19th century makers conceptualized their work would probably help us to understand them and their craft (and by extension, our favorite instrument), better.

Bill
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Marcelo Muttis
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Post by Marcelo Muttis »

And what would happens if we make some kind of filing over the new hole? I guess they call it "scoop". Just to reduce that chimney at 1.5 or 1 mm.
Would it be a viable solution?
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Post by billh »

Marcelo Muttis wrote:And what would happens if we make some kind of filing over the new hole? I guess they call it "scoop". Just to reduce that chimney at 1.5 or 1 mm.
Would it be a viable solution?
I suppose this ought reduce the effect, but it could not eliminate it. Also, sinking the keypad seats so deeply into the chanter might involve more structural risk to the instrument, especially if you tried to go as thin as 1mm. I had an unhappy experience with an instrument of my own manufacture once, when trying to do something similar :-(

I should point out that you might 'get lucky' and fail to notice any effect from a new tonehole, i.e. things could more or less cancel each other out, or have a negligible effect. But it's not a low-risk procedure, which is what this discussion is about I suppose (i.e. "can cause trouble" as opposed to "will definitely cause trouble"). If the instrument is working really well already, I would not take that chance, even putting considerations of ethics and conservation aside for a moment. [And if the instrument is not working really well, why add keys to it? ;-) ]

Bill
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Post by Tony »

billh wrote:......And if the instrument is not working really well, why add keys to it?

Bill

You probably touched on this earlier.

Let's say the original chanter that was copied was fully keyed. The new pipemaker decides to produce only keyless chanters. They sound good... but nothing great. (though he could never figure out what the problem was)
One day, the same maker decides to bore out 'those other holes' and produce a fully keyed chanter, just like the original and (possibly) to his surprise, this new chanter sounds really great... and those annoying intonation problems he had before are gone or substantially minimized.

To your knowledge, has this scenario really happened?
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Post by KAD »

billh wrote:
Marcelo Muttis wrote:And what would happens if we make some kind of filing over the new hole? I guess they call it "scoop". Just to reduce that chimney at 1.5 or 1 mm.
Would it be a viable solution?
I suppose this ought reduce the effect, but it could not eliminate it. Also, sinking the keypad seats so deeply into the chanter might involve more structural risk to the instrument, especially if you tried to go as thin as 1mm. I had an unhappy experience with an instrument of my own manufacture once, when trying to do something similar :-(

Bill
Forgive the potentially dumb question from someone who is bad with math and heavy machinery, and who would consequently never dare try to make a chanter, but:

Marcelo's question and Bill's response got me to wondering whether any pipemakers have ever made keypads that "fill" the tonehole, effectively recreating the wall of the bore. That is, the pad itself would have a protruding circle (or oval or whatever), shaped to sink past the exterior of the chanter and past the seat of the pad into the tonehole, and deep enough to match the inside of the bore. In my admittedly very limited experience I've only seen keypads that cover the tonehole, and I wondered whether anyone made them in any other way.

Just curious.

KAD
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Post by Kevin L. Rietmann »

billh wrote:Instrument making tends to be a conservative craft - witness the violin, whose design reached such a sophisticated state by the late 1500's/early 1600's that those instruments are regarded as the ultimate even today; every now and then someone creates an "improved" violin using modern acoustical theory, but those new designs never seem to catch on.
Violins have been modified - longer necks set at steeper angles were put on the old Strads etc. in the 19th century, and newer designs of bows were adopted as the music became more virtuostic. The improved violins look so strange players reject them purely on sight; violinists are twisted, though, remember the story about the classical muso who selected the best ax in the shop but couldn't buy it because it only cost $10,000?
Uilleann pipes don't have an orthodoxy to depart from. What does an uilleann pipe look like? Coyne? I'd say the most influential modern maker is Eugene Lambe. There are plenty of odd ducks working now, though - Daily, Lynch, O'Briain.
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Post by Kevin L. Rietmann »

KAD wrote:Marcelo's question and Bill's response got me to wondering whether any pipemakers have ever made keypads that "fill" the tonehole, effectively recreating the wall of the bore. That is, the pad itself would have a protruding circle (or oval or whatever), shaped to sink past the exterior of the chanter and past the seat of the pad into the tonehole, and deep enough to match the inside of the bore. In my admittedly very limited experience I've only seen keypads that cover the tonehole, and I wondered whether anyone made them in any other way.

Just curious.

KAD
My old Patsy Brown chanter had pads like that - they were like little leather stubs that filled up the tonehole's bore. When I repadded the chanter I didn't bother with it - dunno how he did it. I don't think it mucked up the tuning much - it needs a rush to play in modern CP anyway.
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Post by Marcelo Muttis »

Forgive the potentially dumb question from someone who is bad with math and heavy machinery, and who would consequently never dare try to make a chanter, but:

Marcelo's question and Bill's response got me to wondering whether any pipemakers have ever made keypads that "fill" the tonehole, effectively recreating the wall of the bore. That is, the pad itself would have a protruding circle (or oval or whatever), shaped to sink past the exterior of the chanter and past the seat of the pad into the tonehole, and deep enough to match the inside of the bore. In my admittedly very limited experience I've only seen keypads that cover the tonehole, and I wondered whether anyone made them in any other way.

Just curious


[/quote]

The curiosity is the thirst that led us all here, isn´t it KAD?, and it´s great, I thought the same ´cause I saw that thing in a sax, the keypads had a brass circle attached to some depth to fill the chimney and to suply the bore with the same material of it´s wall.
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Post by Tony »

Kevin, were the pads a loose fit?


A few thoughts:

keep it simple, make it strong, design it to require as little maintenance as possible/necessary.

Leather shrinks and swells with moisture changes, so a plug style key may fail (or require too much maintenance) over long period of time.
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Post by Wormdiet »

Very interesting discussion.

Irish Flutes use pewter plugs for the bottom two tone holes - I wonder if they would work in this application?
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Post by simonknight »

Marcelo Muttis wrote:I saw that thing in a sax, the keypads had a brass circle attached to some depth to fill the chimney and to suply the bore with the same material of it´s wall.
The resonators on a sax pad don't protrude much into the chimney - they are there o provide a solid resonating surface. The total sirface area of the pads on a sax is large compared to the bore and I do believe they make a difference to the tone. I repadded a sax, reppalcing plain pads with resonators and the tone was brighter.

Some time ago I had a couple of keys added to my bassoon (high e and f near the top) and dicussed the implications with the maker. He confirmed much of what Bill has said. The modern conical basson bore has evolved over four hundred years and theoreticians from Helmholtz onwards have contributed to the understanding of the acoustics, however it has always been necassary to experiment when making bore and tone hole changes. The equations cannot be solved with enough accuracy for precise hole placement.

Bernd manufactures his instruments with great precision and he did understand from experience the impact of these extra tone holes (not huge because they are small and shallow compared to the total volume of the bore.) Some re-voicing of a couple of notes was required.

I suspect the opposite might be the case with a UP chanter. Adding a D and E hole would be a proportioinaly much larger change to bore.
Simon
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