Poll - out of curiosity

[Brian Lee]

There's also the asthetics to take into consideration. Having played heavily on two different 'budget' sets one metal and plastic, and the other solid resin, neither one felt the same as a great ebony or other wooden stick under the fingers. There's something about that organic connection that cannot be duplicated in plastic.

Pat Murray was the gentleman who was casting his chanters in resin, and of everything I've seen, heard and played, his sets were as close to the mark as they came - bar none. But even with as much as they had going for them, and a price of around $600 new they weren't being snatched up by the hundreds. Those of his sets that are floating around out there seem to be much enjoyed by their owners, but with makers like Pat Sky turning true hardwood chanters for inexpensive sets of pipes, the demand for plastic seems to be waning.

There's nothing like the feel of ebony in the morning.

[Antaine]

There's also the asthetics to take into consideration. Having played heavily on two different 'budget' sets one metal and plastic, and the other solid resin, neither one felt the same as a great ebony or other wooden stick under the fingers. There's something about that organic connection that cannot be duplicated in plastic.

Pat Murray was the gentleman who was casting his chanters in resin, and of everything I've seen, heard and played, his sets were as close to the mark as they came - bar none. But even with as much as they had going for them, and a price of around $600 new they weren't being snatched up by the hundreds. Those of his sets that are floating around out there seem to be much enjoyed by their owners, but with makers like Pat Sky turning true hardwood chanters for inexpensive sets of pipes, the demand for plastic seems to be waning.

There's nothing like the feel of ebony in the morning.

was the $600 for a practice set? a real one would cost you that much, no wonder.

and not "feeling" the same never stopped a clarinet student. Besides, nothing "feels" less like a real set than your empty hands because you can't afford one...


so far, we're running neck-and-neck. we have 12 in the "no" category, and 12 in the "yes" category...granted, it's only 12, but that's 50% of those polled...and how many who bought pakistani sets never made it far enuff to join this community and be polled in the first place...i think it's fair to say that however many pakistani sets are sold annually, there would be at least that many $700-$1000 waranteed resin full sets sold annually in their stead...doesn't seem like "nobody wants them" to me...

many already experienced pipers with wonderful sets would have no need of such a thing...and that's fine...all I ask is the recognition that a reliable inexpensive beginners full set would do some good...maybe then pakistan would stop making them... :roll: right, I almost got that out with a straight face...

[Brian Lee]

There are plenty of sets coming out of Pakistan or wherever else, that can be reeded and set up to play just fine. It just takes a bit of time and skill to do so. I've head three of these types played (in three different stated by three different pipers) which sounded just fine to me. no, they weren't a Coyne, Wooff, or Quinn, but they worked well enough. I wouldn't discount the middle east stuff so catagorically. There are plenty of poor sets to go around from other sources as well...

Carry on.

Edited to add: If you look at the ratio of woodworking shows on TV vs. the number of plastic working shows....the woods have it (by like a million to nothing). Possibly, the fact that most decent pipemakers enjoy working in with and around wood might also have some bearing on why we don't see everyone scrambling to turn out plastic sets or even bother with trying to design them.

[djm]

I'm wondering if there isn't a false notion that plastic is cheaper than wood. If you haven't noticed, over the last decade the cost of plastic has been skyrocketing along with the cost of petroleum. And not just any plastic would do for making UPs. It would have to be something very dense, so I wouldn't be surprised to see plastic acually become more expensive than wood in the future.

djm

[Antaine]

not so much plastic... what would you call the molded black stuff they make clarinets out of? resin, maybe?

anyway...it is far cheaper for a company like yamaha to mass produce something molded by machine in that plastic/resin/whateverthehellitis than it is for them to produce the same from wood - any wood.

The average guy in his basement with a workshop, yes, wood is the way to go. To pre-program a machine to pop out one every three minutes exactly the same with no knots, cracks or warping - AND taking into account that you're already an international instrument manufacturer with a setup for working with the resin and a limitless supply? well...if it were so cheap, the student yamahas would be made from wood...

[Paul Reid]

A manufacturer would have to sell thousands a year to make any coin. A smaller outfit could do it if there were considerable capital. DJM is right - it'd take a few million bucks to set all that up and there would not be a financial benefit for many many years.


And you'd still want to own a Froment set!

[Cayden]

That aside I still haven't heard aboput the fact that someone will have to sit down and do the most intensive job in pipemaking: setting them up, reeding them and balancing them. It's all fine to want a student model but it's that last phase that will determine if they will be playable at all. Apply that to the cost of each instrument and see if you're still dealing in cheap instruments.

[Brian Lee]

Well Peter, they'd be all standardized, and generic in tone. If you're going to tool up for production of sets on their own, you would have to tool up for mass reed production as well - much like the highland pipers do it. They have all those cool little auto scrapers, and turbo gouges, and tail cutter thingies right?

And my student clarinet only cost about $700 when I bought it, and it was ALL wood. Yet still not a 'concert' level instrument. Wood wasn't that expensive then comparitively, and my teachers always mentioned the advantages of wood over the plastic models both in strength and tone.

[BigDavy]

Brian Lee said

Well Peter, they'd be all standardized, and generic in tone. If you're going to tool up for production of sets on their own, you would have to tool up for mass reed production as well - much like the highland pipers do it. They have all those cool little auto scrapers, and turbo gouges, and tail cutter thingies right? wink

I ageee with you here Brian - but is it not more likely that the reeds would be plastic as well, if you are putting the work in to standardising a set would it not make more sense to utilise a material with less variability than cane.

DJM

The type of plastic(s) that could be used for the plastic set already exist - the ones that Susato use in their whistles.

David

[Jim McGuire]

Drones seem possible but regs (and chanter) seem remote. Wasn't someone in the UK trying a re-architected reg system with fewer notes? Something like that might do the trick.

Reeding is the achilles heel of uilleann pipes.

[Tony]

....Wasn't someone in the UK trying a re-architected reg system with fewer notes?....

Yes, Jim Daily.
http://www.uilleann-pipes.com/
He's designed a keyed drone set

[djm]

The type of plastic(s) that could be used for the plastic set already exist - the ones that Susato use in their whistles.

Dave, I have a couple of Susatos, and frankly I'm not impressed. They require a huge jump in pressure to play the top half of the second octave. My new Burke whistles are great.

The thing isn't just about the type of plastic, but also about design. If someone can't design a good plastic whistle, what would they do with a UP chanter? Also, I don't agree about the type of plastic, either. Whistles rely far less on resonance than a chanter body. That is where the need for a dense material, and lots of it, would push the cost up - probably a resin body as Antoine has suggested.

And Peter really nailed the big problem - reed design and set-up. Even the Pakistanis haven't managed to overcome that problem.

djm

[Antaine]

the pakistanis have a problem with it because they can't produce a consistent product. if yamaha (who already owns the required equipment) decided to do it the chanter would be an exact replica in all dimensions of the one they're copying. I believe they use cane for the reeds for their clarinets and oboes. If they can mass produce a working oboe reed, they can mass produce a working uilleann reed.

[Lorenzo]

You might could make an career out of collecting all the plastic alto recorders that have been tossed aside, pull the head off, turn the tube end-for-end so the taper of the bore is right for UP, then stick a fairly large rush up the bore. Fingerholes might have to be filed on a bit. Do the same thing with a tenor and another alto recorder, to make the tenor and baritone regs, and you'd have yerself the makings of a ¾ set!

(just plug up the old recorder head joints and use them for end caps on the regs)

[Antaine]

Do the sizes seriously jive that well? I don't know if you're joking or not, but if someone is waiting a year for regs, they could plug around with them in the meantime...

Seriously, tho...if I wind up getting pakistani drones and adding them to my practice set to make a "travel half" I might consider it for regs...get a wooden one, fill the holes and drill proper ones...hm...