A sincere question about piping and pipers

[Joseph E. Smith]

To pull this list would be a sad affair...all for the reason of one or two individuals who seek to turn this forum into a public whipping post for real or perceived wrongs done unto them.

I find this list to be of great value to my piping endeavors, but I am also dismayed by the irresponsible, rude and highly immature threads that appear from time to time. I have to wonder what the average mental age is of some of this forum's contributors... if I went solely by the content of their threads I would have to guess that a few are still wearing emotional nappies.

It is my hope, Dale, that you will not pull this list just yet, and that you will give it some time to right itself. Which means that the rest of us take more care in what we post...and how we post it.

[Paul]

Dale, for myself, the Uilleann pipe forum has been the source of a great wealth of information. It has kept me focused and interested on the pipes during a 3 & ½ year wait. (which I fully expected from day 1) I have posted before that I learn a lot here and I really mean it. I learn from my own questions and the questions of others being asked and answered. Most of the people on the U.P. forum are really helpful. P.D. makes the same point:

Think of all the sessions people get to play in when they travel out of town, all the questions that get answered, all the beginners that get pointed in the right direction because this forum exists.

To me the greater good far outweighs the work of the spoilers. I hope you don't pull the plug on it. Thanks.

[Dale]

Thanks. I really am not asking people to plead with me about this.

Let's do this for now: Help alert me to problematic posts. I'd be particularly happy to hear from people who aren't the subject of inappropriate posts. I'm going to delete and lock more than I usually do. Let's see how that goes.


Dale

[bcpipes]

Hey all,

I wish to see the forum continue. I primarily lurk and don't contribute much. Every time I think of something to say, someone posts an opinion, in agreement with me, before I do. (like this one)

Things can get weird and hostile sometimes. S'gonna happen. I have also even recieved appologies from people who hadn't offended me in any way. Geez, that alone is worth keeping the list!

Recent general economic wreckage has affected my business more than any rumors, gossip, misrepresentations and, yes, even screw-ups of my own making. And even that's not much. I am still struggling to stay on schedule, and no one is bailing out, thank goodness.

Good chattin' with alleeya. Stick around.

BC

[Chadd]

I have also even recieved appologies from people who hadn't offended me in any way.

I'm sorry to hear that, Bruce. Really. I promise it won't happen again.

[benwalker]

I personally Accept that this forum is not the place for slagging off others.
I wouldn't do that kind of thing, nor do I think others should.
I do however understand that when someone has a grievance thay feel a need to share this with others.
Yes a valuable forum and a great resource.
I do sometimes feel that some of the forum users who feel they have had a rough time for whatever reason have been treated a little heavy handedly on occassion.
Sometimes people act out of desperation. Whilst a cool head is a good thing, I can understand some of the frustrations that some forum users may feel.

[Dale]

I personally Accept that this forum is not the place for slagging off others.
I wouldn't do that kind of thing, nor do I think others should.
I do however understand that when someone has a grievance thay feel a need to share this with others.
Yes a valuable forum and a great resource.
I do sometimes feel that some of the forum users who feel they have had a rough time for whatever reason have been treated a little heavy handedly on occassion.
Sometimes people act out of desperation. Whilst a cool head is a good thing, I can understand some of the frustrations that some forum users may feel.

I do understand all of that. Truly. Some of the posts critical of pipemakers have seemed to me to be relatively fair.

What I'm responding to, however, is a scenario something like the following analogy.

Let's say I make $4000 widgets for a living. For 10 years I have uniformly happy customers. Then I have an unhappy customer. Could be I screwed up. Could be the customer was unreasonable. In any case, the customer is mad. The customer goes on the widget forum and airs his case. The 10 years worth of happy customers are too busy being contented and using their Wisely Widgets to bother to post re: their happiness with said widgetry. I get wind of the critical post from a friend. Perhaps I have to borrow someone's computer, locate the forum, register, and post a response. Perhaps the response ends up being a who-ya-gonna-believe deal. Maybe the customer is so mad that he forgets to mention some ways that maybe he has contributed to the misunderstanding. Maybe.

Now someone comes on the widget board and wants to find someone to send $4000 to for a new widget. He sees this exchange. He doesn't know who to believe. Here he finds another widget maker who has no complaint on the forum (which bears no direct relationship to whether he HAS any unhappy customers--just none have posted). Who's he going with? The second widget maker. It's not fair.

THIS would be fair: five or six people post deliberate and well-written and reasonably complete accounts of why they are not happy with their widget. That is NOT A PROBLEM.

Here's another difference between the u.p. thing and the whistle thing. If I make four to eight $4000 widgets a year, any ONE complaint has a lot more power. If I make 500 whistles a year, at $80 or something--one complaint is just one complaint. (And this happens: Every whistlemaker on the planet has a percentage of unhappy customers). THere's a lot more data for people to use to judge the whistlesmith.

I could go on, but I think instead I'll watch another hour of the 2nd Lord of the Rings movie. I'm watching the whole series in little segments because whenever I try to watch one all the way through I fall asleep.

Dale

[marcpipes]

I've found this forum to be of great use and have especially appreciated the clips and snips section. A good deal of the advise posted here has been posted in kindness good humor with a wide varience of opinion and solutions to fit almost every situation. At times, however, the comments of the unbalanced are posted in wreckless disregard of the people they are aimed at. I figure that's because it's easy to wax lunatic at someone who can't smack you in the mush when the are half a country or an ocean away. Sarcasm doesn't translate well in print.
When we talk about being nice on here, we are generally preaching to the choir as most of(not all)those who get most blatant on here rarely contribute anymore than the occasional pot-shot. I don't envy you the moderator post, but I can only suggest a system of warnings to the offenders that their behavior will not be tolerated for long and their removal would be warrented if the said behavior continues. This could apply to all forums.
I'm learning to make pipes myself, but have seriously considered not making U.P.s professionally just to avoid the slagging that can come from an unknowledgeable or disgruntaled customer with an axe to grind who can type on a forum more quickly than they can think.
Marc
P.S. Find a buddy with a big screen tv to watch The Two Towers with you.
It'll keep your attention better than on the small screen. No no-doze though, or you'll have a heart attack during the scary bits.

[srfmowman]

Dale,

I have had many questions answered on this and the other C&F forums about whistles, reeds, pipes, makers, Irish music, clearing customs, and so many other things. I have burned contributions to clips and snips to CD's and I listen to them during my commute. This forum has made it possible for me to pursue the learning of this very lovely instrument. I also don't believe the local Salt Lake Pipers group would have started without this forum. I am deeply grateful for the time and energy you have taken to provide this forum.

That said, may I suggest that comments about makers be limited to "I would buy a set from this maker" or "I would not buy a set from this maker"? People who wanted more information could PM individuals for a more complete story. Individuals could draw their own conclusions without all the flaming, slagging, whatever.

2 cents from a really happy newbie.

[eskin]

I've had my share of inappropriately heated debates inflicted upon me by a few people on this forum, but overall, its a great resource, one I always recommend to students and new players.

I'd rather see some agressive suppression of free speech rights than having to resort to closing the board. After all, this isn't a government run institution.

Cheers,

Michael

[kevin m.]

Here's my next question--Who believes that the positive value of this forum outweighs the nastiness? Is there enough genuine educational value to warrant its existence? If not, I think it would be a good time to pull the plug and I'm not convinced there'd be much grief at its passing.

Dale

I for one, would not be attempting to learn the Pipes now,without all of the information that I gleaned from this forum,or the support and advice freely given by various contributors to this board.
I acknowledge that there is a certain 'forthrightness',shall we say?,sometimes misguided,from certain board members,that I noticed from day one of coming here.
Do the pipes attract people with that type of character,or does playing them send you like that? I dunno.
What I am sure of is that I would certainly miss this board,as in essence it is a TREMENDOUS resource of information and experience.
I think I've been down this road before (round about the end of '03?) .Sigh....

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

[snoogie]

Here's my next question--Who believes that the positive value of this forum outweighs the nastiness? Is there enough genuine educational value to warrant its existence? If not, I think it would be a good time to pull the plug and I'm not convinced there'd be much grief at its passing.

Dale

I add my vote to the positive side of the discussion. While I would still be pursuing the pipes without this forum, I would be much further behind where I am now.

The knowledge learned from you (sometimes) cranky old pipers (oh sorry, some of you arent that old) has kept me from making a lot of stupid mistakes. I still reserve the right to be stupid on my own however!

The base of knowledge here is extremely valuable, although some of the nastiness has at times been too much, I'd like the forum to continue as well.

Cant we all just get along?

-gary

[Joseph E. Smith]

Gary wrote: "Cant we all just get along?"

Those are fighting words, if you ask me . Hey Gary, how are the new pipes holding up?

The good this forum provides far outweighs the bad threads. Maybe Dale Wisley can employ a 'two strikes, you're out' policy. An aggressively thoughtless contributor gets a single warning, after that they will have to express themsleves elsewhere. The moderator, having the ability to delete or lock out threads, could use these abilities with more frequency.

Another thing that the rest of us can do, is not to reply to the 'rougher' contributions to this list. Without fuel, the fire goes out...so to speak. I know that it is pretty tempting to go off on someone you don't agree with (having a large mouth and ego, it is all I can do restrain myself sometimes), but it is better to ignore them altogether rather than respond and perpetuate an e-brawl.

Bottom line, we all can take it upon ourselves to behave in a manner befitting the mature and responsible adults I trust that we all are. Nobody has to grow up, they just should behave a little better and give some thought to how they respond to forum postings.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go and somehow deflate this awfully large head I seem to have just developed

[Lorenzo]

Seriously, the benefits of this forum do exceed the nastiness. I know you're not looking for praise, but I think you are an excellent moderator. I'd hate to see someone who knows anything about the UPs in charge.

There are several online leadership courses available. For some of us pipers, because of our inherent demeanor, you might consider giving us a "people skills" exam to see we can qualify for memebership.

Or, if this forum gets to be too much of a problem, send us packing. I'm sure the Gaelic Xing would like the activity for a while. Then, when the same problems emerge again, GC could rotate us on to the next Correctional Facility.

You'd hope that anyone smart enough to learn how to control the pipes would have the intelligence to learn how to control their own tongue, or choice of words.