B flat chanter revisited
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B flat chanter revisited
"I, as a newbie, am sorry that I chose an Angus chanter. I and my friends were unable to get it in tune. I thought it was the makers fault" Don
OK, here's a personal evaluation then:
I, as a newbie, am sorry that my friend chose an Angus Bb set. I and my friends, and a very experienced uilleann piper who is also very good at making reeds, were unable to get it in tune. I thought it was the makers fault.
"When reeded correctly they are simply in tune. It has been my experience that Mr. Angus is especially generous with extra reeds when delivering a set so that the player can fool around with adjustments for climate etc. without worrying about ruining their only reed. " Don
Good for you then.
Yes, the Bb set sent to Denmark came with at least 20 reeds!!!. Very generous indeed. The set looked very nice indeed. It arrived in the summer and the weather was not dry or cold. Trying various reeds at the Tönder folk festival, one of Ireland's finest pipers could not get the set to play in tune with itself. Also interesting was the fact that when we put the chanter reed that was working best in the Angus chanter, albeit out of tune, into a Williams Bb chanter, the Williams Bb played very well and in tune with itself.
At the time I made discreet enquiries on the serious piping forum, where it is allowed to both praise, and discuss the faults of uilleann pipemakers like adults, without 1950's style Sovjet/Bush censorship. It transpired that another experienced piper in the US & A had had considerable difficulty trying to assist the owners of 4 Angus Bb sets in getting their pipes to play in tune with themselves. Prehaps there was just a one-off batch of Angus Bb's made at some point that were simply hard to reed for some reason?
Otherwise from what I've heard folks are well pleased with Brad's instruments, and he's said to be a nice guy only too glad to help out. The then owner of the Danish set attested to this, that Brad sent reeds and was anxious to get the set going.
An experienced English pipemaker reeded the chanter in 2006, and it was playing in tune with itself. This was the basis for my remark regarding newbies to be "wary". It seems that this chanter and the 4 Bb's in the US are not that easy to reed and get in tune with themselves. This would also seem to be the root of the problem, the reeding. As Don stated "When reeded correctly they are simply in tune". I have no argument with that, but some chanters, drones and regs are easier than others to reed and get in tune hence my statement "newbies be wary....".
The set is, I believe, in Scotland now, and hopefully making a "hive of honeyed sounds". Most uilleann pipemakers are human, and it is human to err sometimes. I know even Dave Williams has made at least one chanter back in the 1980's that was not up to his usual high standard. As Peter L. remarked there are no absolutes in the world of uilleann piping.
OK, here's a personal evaluation then:
I, as a newbie, am sorry that my friend chose an Angus Bb set. I and my friends, and a very experienced uilleann piper who is also very good at making reeds, were unable to get it in tune. I thought it was the makers fault.
"When reeded correctly they are simply in tune. It has been my experience that Mr. Angus is especially generous with extra reeds when delivering a set so that the player can fool around with adjustments for climate etc. without worrying about ruining their only reed. " Don
Good for you then.
Yes, the Bb set sent to Denmark came with at least 20 reeds!!!. Very generous indeed. The set looked very nice indeed. It arrived in the summer and the weather was not dry or cold. Trying various reeds at the Tönder folk festival, one of Ireland's finest pipers could not get the set to play in tune with itself. Also interesting was the fact that when we put the chanter reed that was working best in the Angus chanter, albeit out of tune, into a Williams Bb chanter, the Williams Bb played very well and in tune with itself.
At the time I made discreet enquiries on the serious piping forum, where it is allowed to both praise, and discuss the faults of uilleann pipemakers like adults, without 1950's style Sovjet/Bush censorship. It transpired that another experienced piper in the US & A had had considerable difficulty trying to assist the owners of 4 Angus Bb sets in getting their pipes to play in tune with themselves. Prehaps there was just a one-off batch of Angus Bb's made at some point that were simply hard to reed for some reason?
Otherwise from what I've heard folks are well pleased with Brad's instruments, and he's said to be a nice guy only too glad to help out. The then owner of the Danish set attested to this, that Brad sent reeds and was anxious to get the set going.
An experienced English pipemaker reeded the chanter in 2006, and it was playing in tune with itself. This was the basis for my remark regarding newbies to be "wary". It seems that this chanter and the 4 Bb's in the US are not that easy to reed and get in tune with themselves. This would also seem to be the root of the problem, the reeding. As Don stated "When reeded correctly they are simply in tune". I have no argument with that, but some chanters, drones and regs are easier than others to reed and get in tune hence my statement "newbies be wary....".
The set is, I believe, in Scotland now, and hopefully making a "hive of honeyed sounds". Most uilleann pipemakers are human, and it is human to err sometimes. I know even Dave Williams has made at least one chanter back in the 1980's that was not up to his usual high standard. As Peter L. remarked there are no absolutes in the world of uilleann piping.
- Joseph E. Smith
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Re: B flat chanter revisited
Unfortunately, what passes here for "adult" discussion is actually more like a juvenile piss and moan session.Steampacket wrote:
At the time I made discreet enquiries on the serious piping forum, where it is allowed to both praise, and discuss the faults of uilleann pipemakers like adults, without 1950's style Sovjet/Bush censorship.
Give me a frickin' break, dude.
The set is in Scotland now, and it is playing in tune and happily so... as it's owner has informed me.
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- Ceann Cromtha
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Re: B flat chanter revisited
[quote="Steampacket"] At the time I made discreet enquiries on the serious piping forum, where it is allowed to both praise, and discuss the faults of uilleann pipemakers like adults, without 1950's style Sovjet/Bush censorship. [quote]
Dude, what Soviet-style censorship? What you wrote back then never even made it to press to be censored. If the writers' union disagreed with you, and if the authorities found it to be politically incorrect, the KGB just picked you up in a chaika, took you to the basement of the Lyubyanka (if you were lucky) and inserted 9 grams of lead in your skull. (If you were unlucky, you were sent beyond the Kolyma to work in the mines...)
Bad analogy. But, of course, if it weren't for the United States of America, you would have known that already... from first-hand experience.
Dude, what Soviet-style censorship? What you wrote back then never even made it to press to be censored. If the writers' union disagreed with you, and if the authorities found it to be politically incorrect, the KGB just picked you up in a chaika, took you to the basement of the Lyubyanka (if you were lucky) and inserted 9 grams of lead in your skull. (If you were unlucky, you were sent beyond the Kolyma to work in the mines...)
Bad analogy. But, of course, if it weren't for the United States of America, you would have known that already... from first-hand experience.
- Ceann Cromtha
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I guess I should go read up on my history again... everyone knows that the Soviet Union was just a swell place to enjoy freedom and, gosh knows, they never had an interest in expanding their borders beyond their original limits.Peter Laban wrote:That sort of statements spread a terrible stench.But, of course, if it weren't for the United States of America, you would have known that already... from first-hand experience. smile
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"Dude, what Soviet-style censorship? What you wrote back then never even made it to press to be censored. ...." K.K.
Lighten up dude, everything's relative - I'll agree that thread-locking a civilised discourse is not quite as drastic as a bullet in the head or a spell in the Kolyma region, but is is mildly irritating nonetheless in this day and age
"Bad analogy. But, of course, if it weren't for the United States of America, you would have known that already... from first-hand experience. " K.K.
God bless the America We are so grateful
Lighten up dude, everything's relative - I'll agree that thread-locking a civilised discourse is not quite as drastic as a bullet in the head or a spell in the Kolyma region, but is is mildly irritating nonetheless in this day and age
"Bad analogy. But, of course, if it weren't for the United States of America, you would have known that already... from first-hand experience. " K.K.
God bless the America We are so grateful
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"I'm sorry I got so upset. God bless Sweden and long live His Majesty King Carl XVI Gustaf!!!" K.K.K.
Steady on old chap you're veering off topic. I think you could also be overdoing it a bit. I'm not even Swedish, but alright then, why not ... Everybody altogether now!! Long live President Bush and his war of terror
Steady on old chap you're veering off topic. I think you could also be overdoing it a bit. I'm not even Swedish, but alright then, why not ... Everybody altogether now!! Long live President Bush and his war of terror
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Anyway, back to pipes ...
... I've always liked the idea of a Bb set. Don't know why. However, how practical are they ... ... OK wrong question.
Are there more disadvantages to Bb as opposed to Bnat? I imagine for some, the length of the chanter and the stretch would be an obstacle, but it occurs to me that a Bb set would be more compatible than B as far as playing with other instruments is concerned (for instance, less sharps and flats in the major scale). It would be less of a pain for a harpist to retune to play along in Bb.
... I've always liked the idea of a Bb set. Don't know why. However, how practical are they ... ... OK wrong question.
Are there more disadvantages to Bb as opposed to Bnat? I imagine for some, the length of the chanter and the stretch would be an obstacle, but it occurs to me that a Bb set would be more compatible than B as far as playing with other instruments is concerned (for instance, less sharps and flats in the major scale). It would be less of a pain for a harpist to retune to play along in Bb.
PJ
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Then the chanter is in tune with itself. I think it must be one or the other. Perhaps it is Schrödinger's chanter?An experienced English pipemaker reeded the chanter in 2006, and it was playing in tune with itself.
Fine. Except that I feel you have misrepresented the error as an error in chanter design/execution rather than a mis-reeding, which may or may not have anything to do with Mr. Angus at all.and it is human to err sometimes
On a related matter, what about great pipemakers who use rushes? Or all of those little bits of paper, bell paperclips, blue tack, tape, etc. in everyones pipes. All out of tune? I am curious about the opinion of the reed makers in the group. Do you find that the chanters are in tune but the "extras" are added to compensate for bad reeds or reed adjustment ( ie can you "fix" them with a really good reed) or are the tuning defects that require these prosthetics "in the wood"?
Serious question by the way. not meant to slag anyone.
-Don
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"Are there more disadvantages to Bb as opposed to Bnat? I imagine for some, the length of the chanter and the stretch would be an obstacle" PJ
Well I have a C and a Bb chanter and small hands, but I don't find it a problem going between the two chanters as regards the stretch and covering the holes. I do find after playing the D chanter for a while and then changing over to the C that I have to concentrate at first on how I place my bottom hand fingers in order to cover the tone holes properly in order to get a good sounding note. Just for a short period, then the fingers remember where the holes are and it's just to play as usual
Well I have a C and a Bb chanter and small hands, but I don't find it a problem going between the two chanters as regards the stretch and covering the holes. I do find after playing the D chanter for a while and then changing over to the C that I have to concentrate at first on how I place my bottom hand fingers in order to cover the tone holes properly in order to get a good sounding note. Just for a short period, then the fingers remember where the holes are and it's just to play as usual
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As for playing with other instruments - not sure Bflat or even C makes that much sense if you're thinking in terms of "common keys". Unless you're Liam O'Flynn and want to play with an orchestra, that is...
The most effective use of ensemble flat pipes IMO involves other instruments 'tuning down' to the pipes, use of capos etc., B or Bflat flutes, etc. Otherwise the tonal quality and sound of the flat pipes will just get drowned in the sound of other instruments which are playing at "normal" volume and tone.
Also, most 'flat pitch' instruments play best somewhat flat of their 'nominal' pitches (at least, the ones closely based on historic examples usually do - they were not designed to modern A=440 pitch, which did not exist at the time). So a Bflat set is not likely to be happiest in exact modern Bflat, meaning that other instruments need to tune to the pipes anyhow.
OK, that leaves fixed-pitch instruments out - but what fixed pitch instruments do you fancy playing with the pipes, anyhow? Piano?!? Accordion? Ugh. Concertina? Well, for concertina your best bet is a lovely flat-tuned concertina, those have a mellow tone that would actually work with pipes. (Peter's C pipes sound good with Kitty Hayes' concertina because they do play pretty near modern C, and Kitty plays concertina "on the row" which means she's usually playing in C and F more often than players using the more common modern concertina style).
Bill
The most effective use of ensemble flat pipes IMO involves other instruments 'tuning down' to the pipes, use of capos etc., B or Bflat flutes, etc. Otherwise the tonal quality and sound of the flat pipes will just get drowned in the sound of other instruments which are playing at "normal" volume and tone.
Also, most 'flat pitch' instruments play best somewhat flat of their 'nominal' pitches (at least, the ones closely based on historic examples usually do - they were not designed to modern A=440 pitch, which did not exist at the time). So a Bflat set is not likely to be happiest in exact modern Bflat, meaning that other instruments need to tune to the pipes anyhow.
OK, that leaves fixed-pitch instruments out - but what fixed pitch instruments do you fancy playing with the pipes, anyhow? Piano?!? Accordion? Ugh. Concertina? Well, for concertina your best bet is a lovely flat-tuned concertina, those have a mellow tone that would actually work with pipes. (Peter's C pipes sound good with Kitty Hayes' concertina because they do play pretty near modern C, and Kitty plays concertina "on the row" which means she's usually playing in C and F more often than players using the more common modern concertina style).
Bill