Regs & beginners

[Calum]

I posted a similar thought on the Dunsire forum in response to someone else's comment but I thought it might get some useful input here. In response to a fairly typical "tell me about learning the pipes" thread, someone replied along the lines of

whatever you do don't even think about touching the regs

or words to that effect.

It got me wondering, why? I simply don't agree with the argument that they're too difficult to deal with. A beginner is already learning to juggle bag, bellows, chanter - I don't really see that some regulator playing is that much more to take on. You don't spend seven years on the right hand side of an accordion before being allowed to touch the buttons on the left.

There is an argument that a full set is difficult to maintain but to me this is more an argument for better maintenance than against the principle.

[daveboling]

It got me wondering, why? I simply don't agree with the argument that they're too difficult to deal with. A beginner is already learning to juggle bag, bellows, chanter - I don't really see that some regulator playing is that much more to take on. You don't spend seven years on the right hand side of an accordion before being allowed to touch the buttons on the left.

For specifically the reason you noted: "A beginner is already learning to juggle bag, bellows, chanter".
I have a rudimentary knowledge of keyboard performance. I would want to become much more proficient before I sat down at a pipe organ and started tap dancing on the pedals. I have no doubt a rank beginner, with minimal instruction, could sit down and begin to produce sounds from the chanter, drones, and regs simultaneously (picture that sound in your mind ), but attempting to handle a full set from the start would slow the learner's progress mastering the bellows, bag, and chanter. I've only been playing thirteen years, and only eight with the drones. This past year I have begun to add the regs, and it is a significant leap in prestidigitation. I would have loved to start out on a full set, but I wouldn't have come as far as I have (what little that is ), if I had been distracted by the extra bellows work, and distraction of all of those lovely keys.

dave boling

[Mr.Gumby]

I never thought a practice set a good idea. I started on a half set myself and I think doing so I avoided a whole stretch of re-learning pressures and bagcontrol mistakes I have seen occur in my own pupils when they moved on to playing drones.

When I was learning early on someone teaching me , Seán Donelly I believe, remarked Johnny Doran started on the full set, playing the regs from the start. I can't think of any piper who's chanter and reg playing are more integrated.

[geoff wooff]

When the current revival fully started, in the early '70's, it was very difficult to obtain a well working full set. Those that knew how to make them had all but died out. There was also a reaction in some quarters to a percieved over use of the Regulators which led to a fashion for discouraging the study of the things.... I recall talking with Johnny Bourke at the end of that decade and him saying "these Young pipers they want you to put reeds in the regulators and have the things in tune !!"..... it being common at that time to buy a full set without regulator reeds... they were not needed (was the perception) because nobody played them anyway.

I am a great believer in starting on ( at least) a half set for the reasons Mr.Gumby suggests and also that the piper and the maker cannot then get away with a less than compliant Chanter reed... because the pressures have to be within certain limits for the drones to operate correctly.

I see many Young pipers now who graduate very quickly to the full set and perhaps this is because it is now possible again to obtain a good working Pipes.

I started on a full set, albeit that I did not have it all going at the begining and looking back I do not see it as a bad thing even when it leaked like a sieve. If one obtains a good instrument then maintenance is minimal and the Pipes are not a difficult instrument to learn.... getting that good set though... that can be the hardest part.

[mke_mick]

This thread is redundant with this one (which, Calum, you recently posted to, albeit off-topic ), but since you paraphrased something similar to what I've said, I'll bite.

For the record, I believe there's more than one correct way to do practically anything, and the more complicated that thing is, the more correct ways there probably are. My horn professor back in college used to say that any technique any of us students could come up with was fair game, so long as the end result was:

1. beautiful sounding;
2. sustainable (i.e., not inducing unnatural fatigue); and
3. unlikely to cause practitioner or listener harm.

I've found that to be true in many different contexts (including non-musical ones). So if a player (e.g., Johnny Doran) starts out mashing the regulators on the same day they first figure out how to pick out "Hot Cross Buns" (or "Thelonius" or whatever) on the chanter, and that seems to be working for them, then they're doing it right.

But for most of us mere mortals, the best way to tackle any complicated problem is to start out with a subset of the problem space. This is acutely so with the UP, which is not only complicated to play, but even to simply keep in playble condition. Adjusting both chanter and drone reeds for seasonal changes, for example, is more than twice as complicated as maintaining the chanter reed alone.

So, many of us find the most sensible program of variable-management to be the traditional sequence of (1) start with chanter/bag/bellows only while learning basic chanter technique, reed-tweaking, and "automating" bellows muscles; (2) add drones when student is "ready" (is either strongly motivated to, has mastered the basics, or comes into a half set); and (3) add regs when student is sufficiently comfortable with half set (because the last thing we'd want is for anyone to remain comfortable, playing uilleann pipes).

That isn't a law; it's a rule of thumb. So what's the problem? It isn't like the NPU will confiscate your instrument if you choose a different approach.

Cheers,
Mick

[mke_mick]

Just read Mr. Wooff's post; thanks much for the historical context! I think the "very little maintenance" part might be more true in places that don't have the severe swings in temperature and relative humidity, that parts of the U.S. have (e.g., St. Paul, Minnesota).

Also, there's the economic factor: a full set costs about twice as much as a half set. It doesn't always make sense to spend quite so much up front, if you're a complete beginner and aren't sure whether you'll even stick with the instrument.

Unless, I guess, you think playing regs sooner will motivate you to practice more frequently. Getting drones early had that effect for me. And a good friend of mine who's been playing for only two years or so, got a used full set pretty early on, and he's going gangbusters. (Doesn't use his regs much yet, but there's no doubt he'll make good use of them soon enough.)

Again, I don't think there's only one correct approach here.

Regards,
Mick

[allan moller]

the old 21 year learning period is fallacious,i think the old boys quoted that to make the pipes seem more mysterious and mythical.it all depends on your individual aptitude and talent.certainly at the start i would not consider playing over drones when you are trying to learn how to octave a chanter.i agree with everything that geoff woof says,good pipes are essential otherwise you are on the road to hell.when the old makers died out who knew how to make a great set(largely flat pitched)the resultant efforts at producing good pipes was quite poor for many years.everybody revered rowsome bores because they were the best at the time and some of them worked but not all,he was always changing and he producuced some very dodgy chanters and pipe makers have followed his patterns willy nilly without pioneering their own designs but now we are in a new era of pipe design and a lot of the old problems are being eradicated by innovative and talented makers.dont get me wrong,there are some great rowsome sets out there but also a lot of bad ones,some almost un-reedable that are hidden away in attics.thankfully we have had a resurgence in uilleann piping and it has brought forth a new breed of makers who have addressed the problems of the concert set,the flat set is long settled.because of the shorter d chanter the tuning parameters become more acute as the harmonic nodes become closer thereby making the relationship between the reed and the bore much more critical.the easiest set in the world to reed is a b flat as the harmonic nodes are so far apart. problems you will encounter on old rowsome bores will be sharp first octave e's,a poor differentiation between the a and the g and difficulty in getting the true step between c nat and c sharp.then the high octave will tend toward a flat e,a flat a and a sharp b and if you are very lucky you may get a third octave d as is needed for playing "the queen of the fairies"hornpipe.i could go on and on but i wont as i will probably be barred from the forum.but let me say we have some new kids in town who are doing stalwart work and are so easy to reed up that it is ridiculous.most of the great old sets are flat sets but some of the old concert sets are also great but not so many.the proof of the pudding is in the eating and i can reed my newly made d chanter almost spot on every time whereas it might take me 3 or 4 goes at an old bore design,is'nt that wonderful,pipes are moving forward,allan.

[allan moller]

sorry the last post was supposed to have been about playing regs,got carried away,allan.

[Calum]

Allan, I'm always pleased to see those who know what they're talking about get carried away!

Mick, yes, the topic does have a bit of overlap with that thread but I thought it was worth its own discussion.

One thing I suppose I did not articulate to start with was the case against not learning the regs from the start. My thought here is that someone who only picks up the regs a few years in is always going to treat them as the icing on the cake, doesn't matter if they're not there, etc.

Absolutely maintainance/climate/quality and economics play a part, but I think those are seperate concerns from the pedagogy.

[blackieoc]

Howayee,

Been a while since I posted anything and Molly is asleep now so here goes! This is something I get asked about a good bit. Ive always steered towards the sooner you get a full set the better. I was lucky enough that soon after I started the pipes, (a beautiful Cillian O'Briain practice set, with Holly chanter) I suppose six months later (maybe less) My dad got me a Full set. They were a Tom White set. Mickey Dunne organised a few mods, Cillian put his own bag/bellows and Ebony chanter on them. I played this set for a good 5 years and they served me very well. I think having a full set across my lap was good for my posture and also demystified regulators a bit, because even as I was learning i used to give them a bit of a batter too.
I see lads that play half/practice sets for years and then when they get a full set, they're sitting kinda awkward.
No one ever showed me how to play regs, they were always just there. Its natural.

I suppose a downside to this route is I probably glossed over certain chanter technique because I could get away with playing the regs over tunes. A few years ago I made a concerted effort to go back a bring those aspects of my playing up to speed. So in a roundabout way I got where I wanted to. my tuppence worth

Blackie

[rorybbellows]

Molly O'Connell has a lovely ring to it, a belated congratulations on the new addition to the family

RORY

[mke_mick]

I think having a full set across my lap was good for my posture and also demystified regulators a bit, because even as I was learning i used to give them a bit of a batter too.
I see lads that play half/practice sets for years and then when they get a full set, they're sitting kinda awkward.

Very true; I'm one of those lads, and have to admit it's hard to adjust to holding the chanter "over" the regs, and not hitting regulator keys accidentally, if you're used to empty space above the drones. (Though it will take me a few more weeks, not years, to make that adjustment.) Maybe my re-considered opinion is that it's good to get regulators early if you can afford them, regardless of whether you're ready to play them yet.

But the economic factor is non-trivial: this is a very expensive instrument. My entry-level Pat Sky practice set cost more than my professional-grade French horn, and at the time I bought the latter I could barely afford that.

Thanks for weighing in, Blackie. With you, Geoff, and Allan involved, the ratio of experienced pros to opinionated amateurs on this thread has trended sharply and helpfully upwards. Calum: fair point; in fact, I admit this discussion has eroded my own faith in the conventional wisdom (such as it is/was) on regulator-adoption.

(And I'm not even talking about that 21-years nonsense, which needs to be purged from UP culture for all time. The instrument's imposing enough as it is, without scary folklore like that.)

--Mick

[Mr.Gumby]

Thanks for weighing in, Blackie. With you, Geoff, and Allan involved, the ratio of experienced pros to opinionated amateurs on this thread has trended sharply and helpfully upwards

So much for the rest of us contributing here.

[PJ]

Time to post one in the column of the "opinionated amateurs":

My philosophy with musical instruments, not just pipes, is to buy the best that I can affoard.

With the pipes, we have a slight advantage over other instruments in that we can buy our instrument in stages. So when starting out, if you're limited by a budget, buy the best quality practice set within your budget. Later on, when you have put aside a little more money, get the best drones and regs within your budget.

Of course, if you're not limited by a budget, there's nothing wrong with starting on a good quality half or full set.

[NicoMoreno]

I imagine people still don't know the person behind the persona, Mr. G

I had a half-set pretty quickly, and I think all players should start with at least that, but most of my students just can't afford it. I wish I could have had regs right at the beginning, though...