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Big empty space at top of page

Post by AuLoS303 »

I've been away from the forum for a while and coming back I noticed there is a huge empty space at the top of the forum. Its more noticeable when Desktop site is unticked on my phone.
I'm just wondering what is missing?
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Re: Big empty space at top of page

Post by kkrell »

Does not happen on my Android phone. Perhaps it's specific to your browser, or something to do with ad-blocking.
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Re: Big empty space at top of page

Post by GreenWood »

Maybe it is advertising space and works regionally ?


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Re: Big empty space at top of page

Post by Nanohedron »

It's just how we landed in the Big Change. We've dropped the banner advertising as it has become irredeemably gauche, with lurid and aggressive subject matter on the order of T shirts reading "You Can Have My Sheet Music When You Pry It From My Cold, Dead Hands" (actually, that would be funny, but I just made it up to give you a general idea of the confrontational level of tone and lack of couth we were seeing), and tactical gear, of all things. Put another way, it was all dumb, toxic, boneheaded, childish, in-your-face, power-tripping rubbish sporting enormous breasts and snarling faces; going by content, I can say I am proof that they no longer even bother to tailor ads to our members' Googlings, for not even so much as one cat did I ever see. But force-feeding a music message board a bunch of Rambo-fabulous accessories as if C&F were a biker bar? It just doesn't fit here. We've tried, but Admin doesn't seem to get any say in what's thrown at us ad-wise, and since to date C&F is not yet the paramilitary site they seem to take us for, the revenue isn't enough for us to ignore our better tastes and principles. Thus, perhaps, the space. Could be a different reason. That, and a few other things, are yet to be ironed out.

The goggly-eyed dog supposedly from "Hakam Din" was a deft touch, GreenWood. It seems you have a taste for farce. :thumbsup:
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Re: Big empty space at top of page

Post by GreenWood »

Nanohedron wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:03 am
....

The goggly-eyed dog supposedly from "Hakam Din" was a deft touch, GreenWood. :thumbsup:
Yes, they are smarter maybe than we think. That is what surprises me though, apart from their name...and we don't laugh at name's and I am sure it is a noble one, but I could not have thought up more appropriate title (i.e. Hack'em Din)... what surprises me though, is that they put the effort into making an instrument and then don't tune it, and still manage to make a living from that. I must have missed something, like a page on their site "How to finish the tuning of our instruments, tweeks and improvements". I reckon if they sold them like that they would be in business... but they already are. That's what I mean by smart...bait and switch isn't American and "all publicity is good for business" neither.

So the Irish flute player in the video placed on their "Irish flute" page might expect a bill at some point (for the advertising). Same goes for the Japanese fellow they linked in a video of . He seems to know how to play well on Baroque instruments, but as always the reverb makes it impossible to hear the actual instrument well...certainly an improvement on the video of Hakam Din members playing their own baroque instruments.

The Japanese fellow is playing his own there though, ones he makes. I browsed over his site a bit, and came across a page for Ivory flutes. Not the faux Ivory page, actual ivory, where he explains that he has to meet the customer first to find out if they are appropriate and that certain lengths of flute are difficult to obtain material for. So there was another surprise, hopefully they don't make them out of whale also.

Well, I'm glad chiff has stayed away from the advertising, it can be glitzy but changes the feel of a site also.

P.S. I think you edited in the "supposedly", and the last sentence before I had the opportunity to post... I was writing from memory of your initial post...so different tempos going now :-)
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Re: Big empty space at top of page

Post by Nanohedron »

GreenWood wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:18 am ... what surprises me though, is that they put the effort into making an instrument and then don't tune it, and still manage to make a living from that. I must have missed something ...
"It takes money to make money" - the entrepreneur's maxim - always applies, even when one's business model betrays a philosophy allied to the less charitable maxim, "There's a sucker born every minute." IOW, there will probably never be a shortage of the uninformed thrifty to line Hakam Din's pockets, but the costs of materials and labor are a necessary evil in reeling them in. One baits according to the fish. Evidently in their economy there's good enough profit to be made, which is the main thing, otherwise they'd have dropped this gig long ago. So we speak out, as we must, and let the winds send the message where it may find an ear. One hopes such makers will one day repent their ways, but that requires a commitment to more than money alone.

It may be that they tell themselves that they genuinely provide a service - indeed, they give their workers a living by it, if we want to split hairs - but to the committed musician, rationalizations absolve nothing, for among the buyers of HD products, is there anyone who has not come to regret it?
GreenWood wrote:...bait and switch isn't American and "all publicity is good for business" neither.
I'm afraid I don't share your rosy take on my fellow Yanks; unprincipled opportunists can be found anywhere. I've been cheated aplenty by my own, and heard numerous Americans intone, "No publicity is bad publicity," or words to that effect. It's a cynical position, but one that excludes no nation.
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Re: Big empty space at top of page

Post by GreenWood »

"It takes money to make money" - the entrepreneur's maxim - always applies, even when one's business model betrays a philosophy allied to the less charitable maxim....
It is funny with flutes though, there is always a bit of a mystique to them, and on the other hand "how would it be possible to make one that did not work", because the idea is very simple... a piece of wood shaped to specific dimensions, dimensions which must be well known by now. What is irksome is the false advertising, including clips of other instruments as if their own for example. I think most people are already aware that reviews at a sales site are worth little.

I should have said "of American origin"... it is likely an old "profession" ... and the phrase on publicity is a famous quote by someone over there.. not that famous that I remember though...looked it up as P.T. Barnum.
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Re: Big empty space at top of page

Post by Nanohedron »

GreenWood wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:43 pm... it [fraud] is likely an old "profession" ...
(Brackets here and below are mine.) I have no doubt of it whatsoever. We have records that the Sumerians were aware of the concept, so in human affairs willful deception goes back at least as far as writing itself. But I strongly suspect it's a much older trait than that, for across species deception's a survival tactic, competitive advantage being the whole point; take the hunter's blind, for example. In the human model of objectifying others - which is the only model I can dare speak of - we have plenty of room for preying upon our own kind, but since we also understand that for us this behavior is in no way obligate, we have the additional peculiarity of laboring, at length, under concepts such as ethics; that too is only natural, given our makeup. We would be somehow less human if we didn't take our motives into account - be that as it may.
GreenWood wrote:... and the phrase on publicity ["no such thing as bad publicity"] is a famous quote by someone over there.. not that famous that I remember though...looked it up as P.T. Barnum.
P.T. Barnum was nothing if not a great self-publicist. He worked and succeeded at looming large in the American public imagination, and this has continued for generations after him, so it follows that a number of sayings will have been attributed to him - some rightly, some not, and some doubtless crafted by his competitors in order to discredit him. The above is one of those whose Barnumian authorship has never been verified. Still, to this day Barnum gets the folk credit.

BTW, the phrase "There's a sucker born every minute" actually predates Barnum in a number of forms, and he was mindful never to disparage his audience, so this attribution was very possibly an attempt to discredit him. Am I a Barnum apologist? Hardly. I am very much askance at commercial enterprises that use animals for our amusement. I am, however, interested in facts.
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Re: Big empty space at top of page

Post by GreenWood »

Ethics did you say ?

The trouble with discussion of ethics is that it almost always degenerates into argument, virtue signalling and hypocrisy... and that's a fact. We might as well discuss religion and politics while we are at it.

For example, HD does not force anyone to buy their flutes and although we do not know for sure there is any purposeful deceipt the phrase "tolerance as a last virtue" also springs to mind. Who am I to judge though... buyer beware... or would you deny a Pakistani his meal because his flutes do not meet your standard ? On the other hand, we could probably buy HD flutes tax free somehow, but new western made flutes ?

Unhunh.

So we are willing to pay tax for a nicer flute, so providing the foundation of the modern monetary system (and its endless increasing political redistributions, read intervention) as well as accepting forceful extraction of private wealth, all based on majority rule... the cleanest dirty shirt, a corruption of might makes right ?

Well !

I think Lewis is a good place to start (and possibly end ) the question, "old fashioned" as his text is ...


https://williamwoodall.weebly.com/uploa ... tivism.pdf

..because the moral of doing no harm (especially on purpose), not to do to other's as you would not have done, and similar, are firm parts of our understanding, of that of just about every culture. There is a nescessity and a natural evolution to this, even in the animal kingdom unnecessary fruitless exertions are punished without mercy.

The non-use of force and eye for eye to back that up (a stark reality and not a "right" , which possibly prevents one person from blinding the whole world) are a clear enough basis though, that anyone might understand. Although many or most people hold that sort of ethic, whether viewed as empathy or pragma, their countries and those closer to the shade offered by them, often don't.

The nature of any competition outside of that though, the rules, are secondary...and subjective.

Respect of the property of others often follows as understood and desirable, if not directly derived from the above, because property is seen as a nescessity of survival. However here we are already into historical argument, "fairness", and endless accusation of varying types.

It is what people do nowadays, argue and bicker over the spoils of their heritage, and the junk imports that leave them the time to complain about not being paid enough for their own work. It's called a service society...the Chinese worker serves their country which invests in the US which inflates the investment so that a person has the money in hand to buy from China. Tadah! ... no need to work in a factory and putting up with lower quality is a small price to pay for the "freedom".

It isn't a sound basis for a society really though, but there is little choice but to compete into that reality because others will get ahead by taking advantage of whatever is offered them. If you don't leverage to the hilt to buy a house, the other will and will outbid you. If you don't buy cheaper to afford the same, you will not have the capital available for other endeavours.

So there is a choice of globalisation and rebalancing of wealth worldwide, which brings its opportunities as well as its failures, or there is a living within productive means and keeping domestic economy in order. At the moment it is a muddle of those for many countries.

So go go go Hakam, the Pakistani population is two hundred million and surely eventually there must be one amongst the crowd capable of making Pakistan's first tuned and working western flute. What a day that would be.


With monetary theory being one of my areas of study, I could suggest this

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/689839

as primer to how we ended up where we are, that being a "money" backed almost solely by government debt (more debt more money), and where that debt is deemed valid because of government ability to (forcefully) tax repayment. It is the sort of thing people once held a tea party about I think, in Boston. MMT is a dark art though (unless you consider voting a forward auction), but aside from the above article , which is something of a transitory medieval philosophy as much as it might relate to our deeper sentiment or orientation , you would have to go back to the discovery of metals and early trade to understand what it might all be about. Unfortunately you are likely to find Marx and the fed already there, such is academic bias nowadays, but there are simpler truths to be found amongst the various studies presented, if approached critically enough.


Chiff I find very "open house", I like the format, everyone seems to find their distances and the mood is friendly. At first it is like walking into a school during a holiday, but you find there are people around still carrying on with work of one kind or another. I don't think you darken any page, like you once mentioned, but mods are understood to be "more equal", and they carry the weight of past argument of others with them... equally people are happy to leave the "honour" of last post on a thread to mod... because it does make someone wonder sometimes, when no one follows up, if it was something they said. Anyway, maybe mods should be more like teachers, seen but not heard ? That isn't a criticism, it just relates to how people often react to "them", or the space they allocate to mods...."mod has last say, and so ends both argument and conversation" .
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Re: Big empty space at top of page

Post by Nanohedron »

Well! It seems I've hit a nerve. I'd like to thank you for pulling aside the curtain on the inextricably intertwined realities of commerce and global economics, because it's something we all would do well to keep in mind, at least in the background if nothing else. My nutshell corollary would be that nothing exists in a vacuum.

But bear in mind that when I raised the specter of ethics, it wasn't an invocation. I merely sought to point out a pertinent aspect of human nature. Ethics takes many forms, and some that you or I probably wouldn't readily recognize.
GreenWood wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:43 am... but mods are understood to be "more equal", and they carry the weight of past argument of others with them... equally people are happy to leave the "honour" of last post on a thread to mod... because it does make someone wonder sometimes, when no one follows up, if it was something they said. Anyway, maybe mods should be more like teachers, seen but not heard ? That isn't a criticism, it just relates to how people often react to "them", or the space they allocate to mods...."mod has last say, and so ends both argument and conversation" .
Here, though, it seems you have gone a very different direction from the topic. Now, C&F has a tradition of permitting - even celebrating - thread drift, so that, in itself, isn't an issue - but the sudden focus on moderatorship gives one a spot of whiplash. Let me clarify a few things (or teach, if you will): First, as stipulated in the CCCP (#15, to be exact), mods are free to publicly socialize with our fellow members - for we are members too - and since we're not paid, this is entirely reasonable. At such times our mod hats are, in the main, set aside; when we put them back on, there's usually little question of it. How the regular member perceives this is beyond our control, so one has to start somewhere and hope for the best. Over the years and to date, nothing has arisen compelling enough for us to change this model (Dale would probably say it's Poststructural); for as much as nothing's perfect, it works in its own way. I can tell you with confidence that the only times we are determined to have the last word is when it involves policy, or we have to arrive at a decision that affects the Board and its members - and we try to do so with all due probity. In that, Admin's word is indeed final. But not so in other matters: In the socializing context I have been corrected plenty of times, and I'm grateful for the education. There, the last word certainly isn't mine unless things should end by happenstance after I say, "Thank you." Very often things don't stop there, though, and the conversation continues to its natural end with or without me. If a matter ends after I speak reason (such as my poor abilities allow), I would certainly hope that such reason transcends something so banal as hierarchy; I would be dismayed if others acquiesce due to my peculiar position alone, rather than on the merit of my persuasions. I can't accept that. But maybe I'll never know, will I. Anyway, that's the contract. Anything else is, of course, one's projections.

Really, I see my function as more akin to that of a janitor in the wings. The only thing I can routinely teach - strictly as a mod - is policy, and generally that isn't needed, because Chiffers tend to be a well-groomed lot. Anything else, though, has to messily come from what I know (or think I know), just as with any other member; there, moderatorial authority ends, for my non-moderatorial opinions (and they may be called that) are just as up for debate as anyone else's. There really shouldn't be any question which is which. A mod as teacher because they are a mod, or a mod being a mod because they have skills, posits that they are to be taken as a musical paragon, and that doesn't work anywhere because no one wants the same teacher. So if I offer opinions (teacherly or otherwise) on something, those opinions have nothing to do with moderating, much less authority, and as such are very much open to debate. In fact, you yourself have already demonstrated this reality. Remember that modship is administrative, and little more; a sensible person shouldn't even want the job. If you're concerned that we are drunk with power and hold the sword of vindictiveness ever aloft, ask around. I'm sure you'll get varying opinions, but ask around. Or better yet, observe. As mods, we would work for and with you, and hope you work with us; as members, we would idly chew the fat, serve up pertinent info, ask questions, or joke around; either way, heaven forfend that our presence should be hair-raising. It works better when people remember that sometimes we simply have a job to do. The station is nothing like a brass ring - any shlub can sweep up - although in the end policy norms do apply (without which one can only hope for chaos). So of course there are special empowerments, but in reality you can't have one without the other, right? With that in mind, here's a further bit of policy (also stipulated in #15.6, IIRC): Be careful of what we call metamoderating. If there's something about praxis that you think Admin could improve on, that's what PMs are for, and we will gladly engage the issue in good faith, for we don't have the hubris to believe we'll get it right every time. But public critique of how mods do their jobs - metamoderating - is quite another matter, and not permitted. Use the back channels instead. It's just good manners.

Not to seem naive, but on the whole I see us all as a team. Other members seem to as well, for the rank and file have on numerous occasions helpfully informed each other of policy, but of course they're not responsible for managing things. So that's why I see myself as a janitor, and a keeper of the peace when called for. But Sauron? Way too much power-tripping for my liking. I far prefer cordial conversations to exercising "control"; it's usually not needed at all, thank goodness. On the rare occasion it is needed, it puts a sour taste in my mouth. But somebody's gotta do it. More to the point: Someday someone will replace me, and needless to say, that'll only be sourced from the membership. Ben and I are inheritors of a particular administrative culture here, and since we find it good and are committed to it, we hope for that culture to continue.

So, has my mod hat been on or off in this post? The answer is both. Not concurrently, of course, but alternately in a sometimes fuzzy way. It won't be that way every time; sometimes it's all hat, but most of the time it's no hat. But of course the hat is always to hand, according to the needs of the time. Usually there's no need, so neither am I twitching to grab it. Most official mod work actually goes on behind the scenes, and that's chiefly in fielding and processing new applicants. Pencil-pushing, basically. We smite spammers, but that's not as epic as it sounds, I'm afraid.
GreenWood wrote:I don't think you darken any page ...
The word is "blacken", not "darken". "Blackening a page" is a metaphor for writing at such length that the page seems, well, black. Darkening a page suggests to me that one has a foreboding, threatening quality that goes beyond the written word. So I'm relieved that you don't think I do that.

Damn. And there I go, blackening another page. :wink:
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