Instrument tuners for whistle makers

[Tommy]

Sure, but I notice how easy it is for me to compensate tuning issues, quite unconsciously, just by adjusting the air flow, a little more or less push. These unconscious adjustments can get in the way to get an objective judgement about the tuning of a particular note.

I know exactly what you have gone through here. So far the only way I have found to check a whistle that I suspect I am making unconscious adjustments to. Is to put it aside unplayed for no less than three days. Then play each note in both octaves. dD, eE, f#F#, gG, aA, bB, cC Then reverse to Dd, Ee, F#f#, Gg Aa, Bb, Cc. It also helps to have not played anything for a day or two. Ears need a rest also.

My first tuner was a KORG CA-30 I ruined a few whistles before I figured out that the tuner was listening to everything. The TV, AC blower, cars driving by. I went to a Harp shop, and bought a clip on acoustic pickup for the tuner, and it works but is a nuisance to put on the whistle, and remove.

[Feadoggie]

Sure, but I notice how easy it is for me to compensate tuning issues, quite unconsciously, just by adjusting the air flow, a little more or less push. These unconscious adjustments can get in the way to get an objective judgement about the tuning of a particular note.

Yes, you're right! And this is why I find this subject so interesting and hoped this discussion would develop. The potential for that issue is high if concentrating on tuning one note at a time or octaves even - again just my opinion and YMMV. So I like to play tunes and scales as well. I find I revert back to "autopilot" when I do that. We've all noticed these issues and strive to avoid them as best we can. That's one reason why real time tuning analysis appeals to me. I can play away (hopefully not thinking too much about what I am doing) and pray the software tells me what is on and what is a little off. I think we have to attack the tuning process from a few angles that act as checks and balances. We probably all go about it in different ways. It's just not a matter of doing the calculations and drilling the holes where the spreadsheet says they go, is it?

I know exactly what you have gone through here. So far the only way I have found to check a whistle that I suspect I am making unconscious adjustments to. Is to put it aside unplayed for no less than three days. Then play each note in both octaves. dD, eE, f#F#, gG, aA, bB, cC Then reverse to Dd, Ee, F#f#, Gg Aa, Bb, Cc. It also helps to have not played anything for a day or two. Ears need a rest also.

Good points, Tommy! I generally take some time between tuning tasks, maybe a week or more, depends on my schedule. That's a great point about resting the ears. I try to limit the number of whistles I tune in a day. There is always something else to do in the shop between whistles. You need to be fresh to hear things well. Hardware and software tuners don't have that issue but you still need the ears. But I don't think I could go a day or two without playing anything before tuning a few whistles though - too many musical commitments, too many instruments, and too little time.

Hans, let us know what your experience is once you get the new tuner.

Feadoggie

[Steve Bliven]

That's the good thing about Flutini or other similar tuners with memories. You can play away for a while, not looking at the tuner, and then check back and see how all the various notes average out over the entire time you've played. No more blowing one note into (or out of) tune.

Best wishes.

Steve

[hans]

But I find that I adjust notes automatically, unconsciously, by ear. Flutini would not pick that up.

One other thing I do quite a bit to get a different perspective to counter subjective playing, is to have a whistle played by others, advanced and beginner players. I gained much valuable insight that way, especially about merits and shortcoming when developing a new design. Some tuning issues have come to light that way, which I could then address afterwards.

[david_h]

I know you said you didn't want to run a computer but an 'ancient' second-hand laptop, with its screen resolution set to the lowest (to get a big image), running sayaku8 could be placed on a shelf or bracket well away from the workbench and controlled with a cordless mouse on the bench. You could have sets of reference tones ready to run etc.

[Feadoggie]

One other thing I do quite a bit to get a different perspective to counter subjective playing, is to have a whistle played by others, advanced and beginner players. I gained much valuable insight that way, especially about merits and shortcoming when developing a new design. Some tuning issues have come to light that way, which I could then address afterwards.

You're so right, Hans. I've had similar experience. The breath and pressure expectations and preferences are all over the map. I've settled (for the moment) on two head designs as a result - one very open and one rather closed. When I can, I also record these players, with permission, and I can analyse the tuning and other factors back at home. It's helped a bunch with my designs. There's no substitute for having good players asses your whistles. They will pick up on things you never notice. I've learned a lot from a couple players.

I know you said you didn't want to run a computer but an 'ancient' second-hand laptop, with its screen resolution set to the lowest (to get a big image), running sayaku8 could be placed on a shelf or bracket well away from the workbench and controlled with a cordless mouse on the bench. You could have sets of reference tones ready to run etc.

Certainly a reasonable sounding suggestion and one I have considered myself. I've got the old laptops. I do make use of Karoda's tools. I don't know about Hans but my shop just isn't a nice place for a good mic or a PC. Even with dust collection , it is a bit too dusty. It's also my wood working shop. And I'd have to have the mic and PC bagged in plastic to keep them working over time. So I might as well keep them in another room and run the best mic and PC I own. But that's just me.

Feadoggie

[billwalkerarts]

I don't know if you noticed the earlier suggestion about Peterson's iStrobosoft app for the iPhone. It contains all of the features of their $200 hardware tuners plus a better screen. It's a really clear and beautiful image. So you get all the advantages of a strobe tuner, a bunch of different scales besides the equal temperament one and it's only $10. Killer deal if you have an iPhone. I bought their stompbox tuner just before the iPhone app came out and now I never use it because the iPhone one works better. It is, I have to say, a little annoying to have a couple hundred dollar hardware tuner rendered pointless by a $10 app from the same company....

[Feadoggie]

I don't know if you noticed the earlier suggestion about Peterson's iStrobosoft app for the iPhone.

What's an iPhone?

It is, I have to say, a little annoying to have a couple hundred dollar hardware tuner rendered pointless by a $10 app from the same company....

So, what does an iPhone cost? And what is the monthly service charge? Does your guitar rig plug into it for use on a dark stage? Not exacly $10, is it?

[highwood]

So, what does an iPhone cost? And what is the monthly service charge? Does your guitar rig plug into it for use on a dark stage? Not exacly $10, is it?

but if you already have an iPhone its a great deal and a nice tuner -and much better than Cleartune for the iPhone IMO (I have both) and its almost always with me one less thing to carry, though if I played guitar or harp or ... I would undoubtly have a clip on tuner of some kind to tune in those noisy places. And to think at one time an A tuning fork was all I needed to help tune a whole orchestra!

On the other hand my ear has disagreed with these tuners with whistles at times - I think the tuner is 'listening' in a different way than my ear - I have not figured out what was going on and may not since I've moved on.

The trouble I see with something like Flutini (which I use and like - but which has a tendency to crash on my computer) is that I believe that (actually I know) I play notes at different pitches depending on their context and so it is important to have selection of tunes to try.

I tend now to use an electronic tuner to tune just say the A, and Flutini or something similar to confirm what my ear tells me. Just playing some tunes, playing against a drone and using my ear works for me.

[hans]

Okay, I opted for big display in preference to real needle, and I now got a shiny new Korg LCA-120.

First impressions: display is big (3" wide scale) and well readable, with and without back light. Back light is very cool, and I can plug in an external power source. Some reviewers said the battery cover is flimsy and can get lost. It is a bit flimsy, and I stuck some tape over it for additional support. There are four big and six small buttons, to change modes etc. The small buttons are really small and it would be nice if they would be bigger. But they work fine.

I like the foldup display, as I can angle it for best view. And folding the display down shuts off the tuner, and offers some protection. I also like the "focus tune" mode: when a note played is within +-10 cents the +-50 cent scale changes into a +-10 cent scale, with a dot every 2 cents, making it easier for very precise tuning. PS: I just realise that to use "focus tune" mode and tune a whistle for just intonation, I also need to program the tuner (see next).

Apart from using the standard ET one can program the tuner for one custom temperament, by setting cent deviation from ET for each note of the scale. This programmed temperament stays in memory. Setting deviations is straight forward, but it just take time and a lot of button pressing. I may find this mode very useful. But I would need to change the programming when changing the whistle key. It would be marvellous if there would be a transpose function (for all twelve semitones). This is one major lack in this tuner.

Calibration: one can set A from 410Hz to 480Hz in one Hertz steps.
With a suitable chart of temperature/frequency dependancy one could set the tuner up to compensate for different room temperatures when making a new whistle or flute. The calibration value is displayed in the top right corner. The frequency of a played note is not displayed (the Shaku software tuner displays both).

Sound mode: The tuner can generate any note from low C2 to high C6. The wave form is square, which gives a tone with plenty of harmonics. One cannot change this wave form (as one can with the Shaku software tuner). There is a volume control dial and an earphone output, so that may come handy.

Volume meter: this is quite basic. The display of it can be turned on or off. I am not sure how useful it may be. My initial response is that I have a far better feel of blow pressure than this meter can reflect optically to me, and I will disregard it.

Overall I am happy with this tuner, especially with its large display and the "focus tune" mode, and expect it will do well in my workshop.

PS: I read that Korg does not manufacture the LCA-120 any longer, but there seemed to be plenty of sources to buy one.

[CarvedTones]

Just an FYI for other shoestring budget hobby makers...

I am using a freeware program called mTuner (Google for mTunerE_104.zip) that works very well for whistles. It displays the notes played on a staff and below gives an indication of how many cents off each is. You start it, play for a few seconds and stop, then you can look at the history of notes and variance you played. I did have to get a decent microphone; using the built in on a notebook was very inaccurate. But my testing with the microphone leads me to believe it is very accurate. When I use an electronic keyboard to produce a steady tone, it stays dead on. But whistles and recorders (I checked some manufactured ones for reference) are all over the place even when trying to play a single note. It stays on the proper note, but it will vary from a little sharp to flat and back.

[highland-piper]

I don't know if you noticed the earlier suggestion about Peterson's iStrobosoft app for the iPhone.

What's an iPhone?

It is, I have to say, a little annoying to have a couple hundred dollar hardware tuner rendered pointless by a $10 app from the same company....

So, what does an iPhone cost? And what is the monthly service charge? Does your guitar rig plug into it for use on a dark stage? Not exacly $10, is it?

Also work on iPod -- no monthly cost, and I wanted one to listen to tunes on anyway. Not programmable though, so it doesn't fit the original criteria.

Regarding the original question, the Peterson virtual strobe flip tuner meets all the requirements and retails for about us$200. I have one, and it's pretty amazing. It costs about twice the LCA 120, but it's about 10x more accurate...