This looks unusual to me (baroque ebay flute)

[LorenzoFlute]

Aren't the holes, like, HUGE for the period (pre-Nicholson)? To me they look as big as a medium-big holed Rudall flute... The embouchure hole also is quite big, isn't it?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/August-Grense ... 3f0c5ee6b7

[jemtheflute]

Well, for sure it isn't technically a "Baroque" flute as it has four keys and a tuning slide. I daresay someone with Langwills will be along shortly to give us the gen on August Grenser (Dresden, 1720-1807). Actually, a quick google search on his name gets plenty of good info, e.g. "Leopold Mozart is known to have ordered instruments from him". He's a Classical era rather than Baroque maker, really. He seems to have made rather more than just flutes, and apparently about 60 instruments by him are known to be extant. this is one seriously special - and specialist - instrument.

[I.D.10-t]

Folkers & Powell sell a reproduction that looks to be similar.

[themadhatter]

The Langwill entry is quite long, so I'll summarize (more available on request):

Carl Augustin Grenser I - born 11 November 1720 in Wiehe / Thüringer, died Dresden 4 May 1807 of "debilitation" (but at a fair age). Having moved to Dresden in 1739, he obtained a Privilege as an instrument maker, possibly to safeguard himself from competition from a particular rival, in 1753.

In 1772 Leopold Mozart ordered oboe and bassoon sets from him; he also made basset-horns and clarinets and there are in addition at least one each of piccolo, oboe d'amore, tenor oboe, English horn, bass clarinet, octave bassoon and serpent with recorded locations.

In 1796 he was reported to have won fame throughout Europe for his flutes; he himself apparently played flute and clarinet.

Between 1771 and 1796 (when he may have retired and passed the business on to his nephew who was also his son-in-law; an instrument dated 1798 is known) he often but not always dated his instruments - no date is mentioned in the eBay listing, but Langwill mentions that it is believed that the crossed swords mark (Saxon swords, apparently) was in use from c1763-98.

(Both his nephew Heinrich and less successfully his son Carl Augustin II were instrument makers; other members of the family were performers and composers. Heinrich's widow married one of his journeymen and their joint names appeared on instruments until 1826.)

I think that covers most of the entry; there are some further details of particular instruments, plus separate entries for his successors.

(edited to correct typo)

[LorenzoFlute]

Of course, not baroque
I'd like very much to know how it sounds, if similar at all to later Romantic flutes.

[Herb]

OK, at the risk of upsetting the apple cart here, does this really look like an 18th C flute? Aside from the cracks, there are none of the signs of wear or use that you would expect, the maker's stamps are very clear and the ivory is mighty white. To me it looks like a reproduction that has either been intentionally distressed or abused. To put it another way, if it is an authentic August Grenser in this kind of condition, what on earth is it doing on eBay with a starting bid of GBP99?

[Feadoggie]

Not that I am any kind of an expert on such things but...the Grenser shop was rather prolific and probably one of the best known woodwind makers in Europe at the time. While most Grensers I have seen were one key flutes there are examples documented in collections (see Dayton Miller) and throughout the web of multi-keyed Grensers pre-1800. These seem to get attributed to Heinrich who worked in August's shop and took over after the uncle's death.

On the other hand, since the Grenser shop, design and name were so well know many other makers copied their work. And modern makers still copy them today. So who knows.

Feadoggie

[LorenzoFlute]

what on earth is it doing on eBay with a starting bid of GBP99?

Who knows, maybe the reserve price is £2000

[Herb]

That's certainly true But there are dealers who sell the authentic flutes for serious money, and they're not hard to find.

[jemtheflute]

Fair comments - proving authenticity is of course, up to the vendor and to potential bidders insisting on provenance and verifiable authenticating opinion from on-the-field specialists. David Shorey on FB immediately commented voicing doubts with regard to the tone-hole sizes. Of course, tone-holes can be enlarged post-production, so their size is not necessarily an indicator of inauthenticity - but equally possibly of later adjustment (which wouldn't enhance value!). Still, we've all seen antiques of considerable age whose good condition belies their antiquity - it being clean proves nothing. I have far too little expertise in this field (C18th and very early C19th flutes) to pass opinions of the kind I might venture for mid and late C19th examples. Nicholson was probably not entirely alone in experimenting with larger holes in or before the 1820s, when 4-key flutes were still in general use and production, just as were one-keyers. As always, caveat emptor.

[chas]

I have a couple of A Grenser copies, and I agree that the tone holes look a little big. Mine are one-keys, and I know that one of them was based on a 1760 instrument, so this one could have been from 40+ years later. The tone holes don't look huge to me for an instrument of, say, 1820, but I've never seen an A Grenser from that era. Peter Noy sells a H Grenser based on a flute from 1805 with holes that are apparently smaller than the ebay flute.

If I'd ever played a 4-key flute that I liked, I'd consider this one. It looks beautiful, and I'll bet it plays very well, too.

[James_Alto]

This handmade one by Crijnen is unusual too:

http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... K:MESCX:IT


Unusual for its beauty and unusual 'cos the sale seems to have terminated and auction resumed from the beginning again@!

[LorenzoFlute]

Sold for just over GBP 1000.
I doubt it, but has anyone here got it?