German Scale Flute?

[westwind]

I just came across this flute on ebay, whilst it certainly seems to be a quality instrument of a pratten type design I am intrigued by the markings on the body which state "German Scale", is this a statement of pitch as opposed to a mystery teutonic scale; can anyone shed any light on this?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/antique-irish-sty ... 1c0d5e4861

[Gabriel]

I'm pretty sure that it is a new incarnation of Pakistan-made flutes. Don't buy.

Never saw such a posh logo on any flute so far. And if by German Scale they mean a copy of a Nach Meyer, it's probably the "out of tune" scale.

[Nanohedron]

Judging only by the case alone, I second the Pakistani assessment. It's a very familiar configuration and set of materials for me: nothing says "Pakistani flute case" like a pleather-covered plain box lined with a red, low thread-count velour-mimicking fabric that's sort of pushed down carelessly into the nesting cutouts. I had one just like it, and I will lay odds that the body parts rest on the fabric alone, suspended just like on a hammock. My nach Meyer's case is what you'd possibly call a "French case", clad in unpadded black texured leather, made in a far more craftsmanly fashion pleasing to the eye, solid, with not only clasps but a lock as well, and the interior lining is of better quality fabric that very finely fits into the nesting areas, and those are all solid surfaces.

As to the flute itself, this is interesting. If Pakistani, I haven't seen an 8-key attempt before. I have a nach Meyer 13-key monstrosity on my wall with a B foot to compare to, and while I realise that "nach Meyer" is not one make as such and there may be variations in details, there are definite points in common with this mystery beast and my wall ornament. It IS superficially close to nach Meyer looks but the mimicry really only goes so far:

1) Only the tuning slide ferrules and barrel socket ferrule indeed have the ridged - I don't know how else to call it - profile similar to those on mine; the rest, however, are the signature weighty half-round profiles typical of Pakistani make. This inconsistency is glaring.

2) The endcap has a protruding rod as on mine, but my endcap is metal and this one is wood. While that in itself may not be an issue for the real deal, again we come to profiles: this endcap is also typically Pakistani with its plain high dome; my nach Meyer metal endcap has more profile workmanship with concentric ridges and such.

3) The foot end is both similar and different from mine: while both show that chamfered-down profile, my foot end is sheathed in metal (again consistently echoing the nach Meyer ferrule ridging), but this one has only a simple ferrule set back from the foot's terminus. Again, this may not be unheard of on other real-deal designs, but once more we see the typical robust Pakistani half-round ferrule profile.

4) The keys and posts in general look maybe convincing enough, although the low Eb/C#/Cb keytouch setup is quite different from mine. It exactly recalls the same setup on a Dave Williams flute I had, needle springs, cozy sharing of the fulcrum rod, and all. On my nach Meyer each of those three keys is post mounted individually like the other keys, with no interactive features, and leaf-sprung. I don't know when needle spring setups came about, and I only have my example to go by, so I can't know at this time if this is a possible feature on some true nach Meyer incarnations. But, the almost identical appearance to the Williams setup does stand out for me, and somehow suggests stock parts.

5) The metal overall shows no apparent age. Nice and fresh.

My verdict: Pakistani. Not too bad of a stealth job, but wholly unconvincing when you really look at it.

[LorenzoFlute]

do you think they cracked the flute to make it look more like an original?

[Nanohedron]

do you think they cracked the flute to make it look more like an original?

Good point! I didn't read that far; I just took one look at the disassembled flute in the case, and alarm bells went off.

Well, maybe it IS just a repair-and-restoration job done with unrelated available spare parts and to chaotic effect, then, or even a Frankenflute. I still think the case looks Pakistani in spades, though (an antique's "original case"? C'mon. I defy anyone to tell me it's not pleather), as do the half-round profiled ferrules, and endcap. Dunno what to say about that. Are there true nach Meyers out there with such thrown-together-looking details?

Anyway, the logo looks awfully cheesy. AND it's in English, not German, and yet the flute has some arguably German-looking superficial characteristics, which isn't adding up for me against the more English aspect of the size of the toneholes. I've been Googling "Flenz", and I did come across someone mentioning possession of a $300 soprano sax, of the Flenz name, with "poor intonation". Nothing else to hang my hat on so far, though, for a make from a firm that's supposedly been "ESTABLISHED IN MCMX". Plus, the Flenz name has a little ® after it, which also especially suggests this flute is nothing of an antique at all.

Yeah, the crack could even be tactical ( ), but I'll count that as happenstance. Slapdash repair job, by the way. Nah, the more I think about it, the more bogus this "antique" looks. And I'm thinking "German Scale" is someone's bright idea for a stab at damage control while keeping production specs in Sialkot City at business-as-usual.

Serious question: was there ever a history of English makes using a so-called "German Scale"?

[chas]

I had also noticed the paucity of references to the "maker's" name. And I don't remember seeing any German antiques with gold paint in their stampings.

Just for reference, my nach Meyer (which belonged to my wife's late stepfather, I think he may have been the original owner) does have a few differences from Nano's. It does have the simple wooden crown screwcap. My rings are D-shaped with a little bead on most of the joints, but the flat rings with a bead on both sides of the slide. The bottom is actually flat, no rounded end, not of wood or metal.

[jemtheflute]

Well, the case is certainly like those that some of the Pakistani flutes come in, down to the little triangular clasps. I have an identical one here that I now keep an 1820s boxwood 1-keyer in..... no need for the flute to belong to the case!

I haven't done any research on Flenz, and I shared some of you others' suspicions on first glance. I am still not at all certain, but I doubt this flute is Pakistani or Indian - it is much better made than even the best we have seen thence. I have seen German and French stamps with gold ink/paint in them (kinda goes with the heavy Gothic style!): I have seen Germanic (to include Austrian and Bohemian) and French flutes with at least part of the writing on them in English (remember where a big part of their market was - English, Irish & American amateurs..... and already by the later C19th English was becoming the international trading lingua franca). I've no idea when Germany (or GB or the US) started registering trade marks, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was soon after WW1, and this flute must be early-mid C20th - the stamp alone (if genuine) gives a TPQ of 1910.

The arrangement of the foot key touches is done properly on this flute, unlike on the Pakistani/Indian ones with Bohm type rod-axle foot joint mechanisms and the general quality of the keys is quite decent so far as one can tell in the pictures. They don't appear to be chrome plated like the usual nasty, clunky sub-continental ones, and the spring on the long F (& I guess the long C too) is screw mounted, not rivet mounted, and reversed - neither of which refinements have I seen on anything Pakistan-made. The rings too do not seem incongruous on a German flute to me - the broad one at the body end of the barrel matches that at the socket of the foot, the flat one with a rim at the slide end of the head matching the flat one at the top of the barrel and approximating to the others when the slide is closed is common on German flutes and the plain rings at each end also match each other - a consistent enough ensemble! The foot end is very reminiscent of a Boosey Pratten (which is of course what the Pakistani and Indian makers seem to have "copied"), but I have seen similar things on other more usual "nach Meyer" style German flutes - they don't all have the "pickelhauben" spun metal end caps - and if my surmise that this is an inter-war (or even post WW2), mid C20th flute made for the English-speaking market, it seems likely that a Germanic maker would look to not display his heritage too blatantly on his products! I have yet to see any Pakistani or Indian made flute with an adjustable stopper, as this flute clearly has. I also cannot imagine them bothering with a fraudulent makers' stamp - they seem happy to own their products! (Or at least to leave them unmarked). Far too much effort to go to for no appreciable gain - they can shift their junk well enough without! The yellow thread lapping, though often seen on Pakistani flutes, means little - that is the commonly available bagpipe supplies thread (probably from Pakistan!) also used by many flute makers and woodwind repairers. The wood appears to be decent quality blackwood, and we have not I think hitherto seen any sub-continent-made wooden flutes with more than the 5 keys of the Glenluce variety - only the Empire type ebonite ones have the (badly done) rod-axle keyed foot and long C key.

I don't have any knowledge-based light to throw on the "German Scale" issue, but just musing.... could it be a reference to the relatively small tone-hole design on what is otherwise pretty much a Pratten copy.... or is it another way of saying it isn't at English High Pitch or French diapason normal - relevant in the inter-war era when International Concert Pitch was being established, if clumsily stated??????? (Of course, we don't know what pitch this flute actually plays at!) We need a Langwill holder to check up on Flenz for us, but I'll take a punt on guessing it's a legitimate stamp.

On balance and short of getting my hands on it to look properly, I don't think this is a Pakistani "ringer". I think it is what it claims to be, but there's no telling how usable it is........

BTW, the vendor has another somewhat unusual flute for sale - in this case I'm deducing it is French made for the Irish band-flute marching bands - an F flute with a fully keyed simple system of the kind common enough on late C19th English hybrid cylinder-bodied D flute and on the "bass" Bb band-flutes. Whatever, it sure ain't Pakistani!

[Nanohedron]

Thanks for the input, jem. Very informative.

I have yet to see any Pakistani or Indian made flute with an adjustable stopper, as this flute clearly has.

To be honest, I presumed the endcap's look was just a matter of outward appearances and nothing more.

If I had the dosh, I'd grab the flute just for study's sake. It just looks too weird to me.

[Nanohedron]

Just for reference, my nach Meyer (which belonged to my wife's late stepfather, I think he may have been the original owner) does have a few differences from Nano's. It does have the simple wooden crown screwcap.

Just as I expected: one will find variety. Could you describe the profile of the wood cap as compared to our mystery flute?

Your ferrules sound pretty much like mine.

I've no idea when Germany (or GB or the US) started registering trade marks, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was soon after WW1, and this flute must be early-mid C20th - the stamp alone (if genuine) gives a TPQ of 1910.

Trademark registry goes back a long ways in GB - such as the Bass Ale red triangle - and even earlier in Italy, I seem to recall, but as best as I can tell, for at least a time no other accompanying marks announcing registry, such as "®", were deemed necessary; the signature element, such as the Bass red triangle, seems to have been sufficient unto itself upon having been registered. But this info is too hazy, with what I'm able to come up with. 1910 is definitely one of several noted points in time for widespread trademark registry in the US, but the Madrid System dates to 1891. I've looked into it a little bit, but find only general rules that don't seem to otherwise specify what accompanying device is prescribed to denote registry, if any. That info seems to come later, and seems to be taken as a given, as if the ® mark had always been there since out of the mists of time. And apparently it's not even universally used, or honored.

When DID the ® symbol start being used, anyway? Searching, I find only scads of trademark law and its history in general, but nothing on the specific history of the mark itself.

[MikeS]

When DID the ® symbol start being used, anyway? Searching, I find only scads of trademark law and its history in general, but nothing on the specific history of the mark itself.

This is a really tough question. The ® symbol denotes a federally registered trademark. I don't think there was a federal trademark registry in the U.S. prior to the Lanham Act of 1946. There is nothing in the Act itself that mentions the symbol, though (yes, I read the whole thing- laws were simpler then). Searching was complicated by mark and symbol having legal meanings different from the ones we normally use. I even called the Patent and Trademark Office and they, in the form of a rather snippy representative, professed no such knowledge.

In an unscientific attempt I examined a non-representative sample of magazine ads. I did not find the symbol on any ad prior to 1951. This proves nothing but suggests that the symbol appeared in the wake of the Lanham act. I am guessing it will take less than a day for someone on the forum to find an ad that proves me wrong. It's been that kind of day... Actually, I'd love to be proven wrong just to know how someone found the definitive answer.

[jemtheflute]

Nice work, MikeS, on the broader trademark question, but U.S. law is probably not that relevant to the flute that is our subject here - German or Austrian (or just possibly Czech or Swiss - until we know more about Flenz, we can't say....) law or some European convention will be, along the lines of Nano's post, and possibly British if the flute was primarily intended for sale here.

(It wouldn't suprise me if European nations/most of the industrial world had a convention of this type and the US ignored or boycotted it for many years before condescending to join up!)

[MTGuru]

(It wouldn't suprise me if European nations/most of the industrial world had a convention of this type and the US ignored or boycotted it for many years before condescending to join up!)

Actually, my impression is that the 1946 Lanham Act in the US more or less leapfrogged European (British, French, German) trademark law at the time in terms of modernization. But the lead has gone back and forth several times since then, and is effectively even nowadays.

[jemtheflute]

Actually, my impression is that the 1946 Lanham Act in the US more or less leapfrogged European (British, French, German) trademark law at the time in terms of modernization. But the lead has gone back and forth several times since then, and is effectively even nowadays.

Fair enough - I know absolutely nothing about this field! Just extrapolating from typical US recidivism!!!!!

It is precisiely the European situation in the inter-war years of the 1st half of the C20th that we need to know about here, I think, though there is no evidence on the flute that necessarily places it pre WW2 - it could quite possibly be from the post-war mid-century period, though on general flute history grounds that seems less likely than an earlier date. However, firms do not tend to claim "established in xxxx" until at least a decade or so has passed, usually rather more.

Where are Jon C or Terry to check Flenz out in Langwill for us?

[Jon C.]

Sorry, no Flenz listed in Langwill .

[crookedtune]

I just installed an applet that tallies the number of blows to the head I take from Jon C.'s avatar.