Irish Grip

Rob Sharer · Post by **Rob Sharer** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:06 pm

Okay, lads, seems like it's been awhile since we had a good argument, ...errr..., discussion, about holding the flute. One of my students made a brief video of me playing a jig, in order to be able to examine my grip a bit more closely (amazing how far you'll let someone into your personal space if they've got a cool camera). After seeing it, I thought, "hey, what a great way to re-start the argument, ...errr..., discussion about flute holds!"

Here it is: [url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76aKx23qd58

Opening salvo: I don't think my left hand looks at all crampey and awkward! Pre-emptive defense: no, I don't always look so far down; just when I'm being stalked by the papparazzi. Cheers,

Rob

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:26 am

Rob Sharer wrote:Okay, lads, seems like it's been awhile since we had a good argument, ...errr..., discussion, about holding the flute. One of my students made a brief video of me playing a jig, in order to be able to examine my grip a bit more closely (amazing how far you'll let someone into your personal space if they've got a cool camera). After seeing it, I thought, "hey, what a great way to re-start the argument, ...errr..., discussion about flute holds!"

Here it is: [url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76aKx23qd58

Opening salvo: I don't think my left hand looks at all crampey and awkward! Pre-emptive defense: no, I don't always look so far down; just when I'm being stalked by the papparazzi. Cheers,

Rob

First, let me say that you played a fine piece of music, no matter how you did so. Congratulations to you!

However, I see that your LH grip has your wrist laterally rotated outwards. On a D flute, this is typical of my own experience when using anything like a "piper's" LH grip. So, for a D flute, and for flutes of a similar size, I suggest holding the flute against the base of the LH index finger, aka a "classical" grip, which allows the wrist to remain straight.

Basically, straight wrists relieve stress.

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:45 am

Hi,
Nice playing!
Well, it works for you, so that is all that matters.

I tried to hold the flute like you are, and I just couldn't do it, my hand doesn't bend that way! Is this kind of a modified pipers grip?
If you had a Bb key, it might be hard to hit, but I guess that is why the pipers grip players like the double touch on the Bb key.

cocusflute · Post by **cocusflute** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:20 am

I suggest holding the flute against the base of the LH index finger...

Whatever have you done or said on this forum that would make Rob, an excellent player, wish to take your advice? His playing sounds great. Why should he change his grip? He obviously doesn't have a problem holding it the way he does.
Harry B, who we know is a great fluter, says there are hundreds of ways of holding the flute.
Rob's room is messy, too. Perhaps he should clean it up?

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:30 am

cocusflute wrote:
I suggest holding the flute against the base of the LH index finger...
Whatever have you done or said on this forum that would make Rob, an excellent player, wish to take your advice? His playing sounds great. Why should he change his grip? He obviously doesn't have a problem holding it the way he does.
Harry B, who we know is a great fluter, says there are hundreds of ways of holding the flute.
Rob's room is messy, too. Perhaps he should clean it up?

He has a nice Persian carpet though...

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:14 am

Lovely playing, Rob. Glad you posted just for that!

On the "hold" front, I was rather puzzled because I couldn't really see how you are getting any inward pressure from the L hand to support the flute. Your fingers are clearly nicely relaxed, so it isn't that you are pinching it between thumb and forefinger, and you aren't doing the classic bansuri type "piper's" thing with the thumb way up tube on the outer side pushing in. Your R hand is virtually "classical" and doesn't really come into the discussion. You aren't holding the flute "up" with a R hand "death grip".

I tried to emulate your hold out of interest and curiosity and I can sort of do it, though my thumb was initially inclined to collapse against the side of my forefinger for support. It seems to me that you are balancing the weight of the flute on the tip of your thumb and that there is no inward pressure to speak of. I can actually play toleraby freely this way at short acquaintance, though for me it involves a certain amount of tension in the L arm and thumb (but not the playing fingers) because there is no inward pressure to counter-act chin and R thumb, and whilst not insecure, I find it less secure than my customary hold - partly familiarity, no doubt. Certainly it would not be possible to operate a thumb key with any facility using this hold. Apart from those two points, I see no real disadvantages or limitations to it or reason to criticise it. As others have said, it works well for you.

I would opine that it is not any kind of "piper's hold" at all, and to describe it so would be misleading. It seems to me that it is exactly how I hold a whistle, simply turned up to transverse position; so, if we are to give it a distinct label, can I suggest "whistle hold turned sideways" would be accurate and help folk to visualise what you actually do?

I think your posting the video is really useful (as well as a musical treat) because it clarifies what now appear to be misunderstandings in previous discussions. I think I and many others would not have visualised correctly what you actually do if you called it a version of "piper's hold". You certainly are not stopping the holes below the top joint of your fingers, which is my understanding of the essence of "piper's", regardless of what the other parts of the hands do or how the instrument is supported.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:22 am

Rob Sharer wrote:Okay, lads, seems like it's been awhile since we had a good argument, ...errr..., discussion, about holding the flute. Rob

Aren't the "lasses" allowed to join the row (if there is one this time)?

Flutered · Post by **Flutered** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:45 am

Does your thumb joint ache and get tired? I suppose it depends on how lightly you seal the holes above? I started holding flute something like that but my thumb was just too uncomfortable by the end of a set.

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:50 am

The heck with your hand position, Rob. Whatever. I'm much more concerned about that drum you have lurking behind you in the video. You have both your hands occupied, and you've got your back to it. You've left yourself incredibly vulnerable to having some dreadlocked wack-job just waltz right in and start beating away on it, you know? Getting cured from carpal tunnel syndrome is a breeze compared to getting a wacko drummer out of your house once an infestation begins. Soon their friends will arrive to join in on the jam. On the plus side, though, they may let you have a hit on the bong every so often if you keep the Dorito bowl full for them...

dhamilingu · Post by **dhamilingu** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:04 am

Fantastic playing! To me, your grip looks entirely natural, as it is almost identical to the grip that I use - except that your hands and fingers look extremely relaxed. My hands and arms do tense up a fair bit by the third tune in a set, but that has much more to do with being at an early stage in learning the flute (just over a year) - I expect that beginners using the rockstro grip also tense up until they learn to relax. My reasons for using that grip stem from reduced range of motion in my left arm due to an elbow dislocation when I was a kid - the rockstro grip is simply too uncomfortable for me.

I also like your neologism "Irish grip" to distinguish this hold from both the rockstro grip and from the true piper's grip.

Now if I could only get myself to SOUND like that....

Pete

boyd · Post by **boyd** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:28 am

Who made your flute?

Boyd

Gabriel · Post by **Gabriel** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:14 am

Great playing. I know that one as the 'Kilmovee jig'.

Regarding hand position I don't give a beep to be honest. As soon as one feels comfortable with it, it's great...I once saw a video somewhere (guess it was on tg4.ie) which featured a flute player who held the flute in a way that looked so terribly uncomfortable that I asked myself, "why the heck is he doing that?". But the music that came from him and his flute was awesome, so who cares about his grip...

Ro3b · Post by **Ro3b** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:37 am

Ditto all that. Your hands seem relaxed and comfortable and you sound great. I hold the flute differently, but I'd never presume to tell you to change how you hold it.

Great stuff!

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:04 am

That looks like the way Turlach Boylan holds the flute. I tried it during my last lesson and found it amazingly difficult...Turlach said it would take some time to get used to that grip if I wanted to switch to it.

Nice playing.

Eric

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:13 am

I could see the wires holding your flute up.

After a bit I could do that. I can see the advantage. Your B finger is totally free.

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