This is a question for Loren and some of you other flute techno-geeks out there.
I have a new, for me, Noy flute. It is a boxwood eight key (nine touches). The head is unlined. It is the flute Peter originally made for JessieK some time ago. I love this flute, by the way!
My problem is this: when I first got the flute everything fit together firmly but not tightly. As I gradually played it more and more and it adjusts to Hawaii humidity (55-75% all the time) the fit has gotten tighter and tighter. The instrument has become so tight that it goes together hard, and after playing a three hour gig with my band, I can barely get it apart. I'm worried that something is going give one of these days. My inclination is to do a LITTLE cork sanding. I don't want to do this so much that in a dryer environment it becomes loose.
So my questions are these. Should I be worried that the barrel may split if it becomes too tight ...or would it have to get way tighter than I could possibly pull apart before I worry about that. I can after-all still pull it apart with some significant effort. If I sand the cork a bit, is there anything I should know beyond using a fine grit (400?) paper on just the cork and going a little bit at a time with lots of test fits between sandings. What do you suggest? It doesn't look to me as though the cork is standing proud of the wood by much.
Clark
PS: Yes, I am asking these questions of Mr. Noy, but I want your views as well.
Tight fit
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peeplj
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I'll take a stab at this, but I hope Loren or one of the makers will answer as well. I've replaced tenon corks on my Hamilton, on my Sweet Baroque flute, on my antique 8-key, and on my recorders. Here's what I would do:
Take a strip of fine sandpaper the width of the cork, and long enough to go around the tenon about twice.
Put the sandpaper around the cork, and grab the ends on the other side with your thumb and fingers to pull it up tight against the cork. Rotate the sandpaper around the cork to sand it evenly. Be careful you are only sanding cork and not the tenon wood itself.
Go slowly, and test-fit frequently. Apply cork grease each time before testing.
Be careful about getting it too loose...it's easy to remove material, but not so easy to add it back.
--James
Take a strip of fine sandpaper the width of the cork, and long enough to go around the tenon about twice.
Put the sandpaper around the cork, and grab the ends on the other side with your thumb and fingers to pull it up tight against the cork. Rotate the sandpaper around the cork to sand it evenly. Be careful you are only sanding cork and not the tenon wood itself.
Go slowly, and test-fit frequently. Apply cork grease each time before testing.
Be careful about getting it too loose...it's easy to remove material, but not so easy to add it back.
--James
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Gaaslaj
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Fitting
I've installed a total of 1 tenon cork, but from all I've read, you are supposed to sand a little, and then try a dry fit. It should go about 1/3 to 1/2 way in without to much force. Then grease it up and try it, that should be it. J.
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peeplj
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I've never been much for trying to dry fit a cork tenon.
One problem is that you may get your join stuck. Also, you may tear the cork loose from the tenon in trying to seperate them--the cork is only held on by rubber cement.
It's also very easy to push just a little too far and crack the wood.
Sand the cork, brush it off, apply cork grease, and try your assembly with a gentle twisting motion. If you're having to use more than gentle force, separate the join and sand some more.
Just my $.02, probably worth exactly what you paid to read it, based upon my own experiences.
--James
One problem is that you may get your join stuck. Also, you may tear the cork loose from the tenon in trying to seperate them--the cork is only held on by rubber cement.
It's also very easy to push just a little too far and crack the wood.
Sand the cork, brush it off, apply cork grease, and try your assembly with a gentle twisting motion. If you're having to use more than gentle force, separate the join and sand some more.
Just my $.02, probably worth exactly what you paid to read it, based upon my own experiences.
--James
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David Levine
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The first thing is to make sure that the tenon itself hasn't swelled. This can be a more serious problem than the cork being too tight, especially with boxwood.
Sand the cork as people have suggested. Grease it well to fit. I have taken too much off on occasion and if you do, don't worry. If you've taken too much cork off, carefully apply a bit of heat from a lit match to the cork as you rotate the flute. The heat will swell the cork. I don't have to tell you to be careful and to avoid having the fire applied to one place for too long a time.
I've done the match trick many times. It's not a big deal. It may discolor the cork but that's isn't so important either.
Sand the cork as people have suggested. Grease it well to fit. I have taken too much off on occasion and if you do, don't worry. If you've taken too much cork off, carefully apply a bit of heat from a lit match to the cork as you rotate the flute. The heat will swell the cork. I don't have to tell you to be careful and to avoid having the fire applied to one place for too long a time.
I've done the match trick many times. It's not a big deal. It may discolor the cork but that's isn't so important either.
Last edited by David Levine on Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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pandscarr
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I had a new Lehart flute two years ago with the same problem - I bought some emery boards, both fine and coarse, and very carefully sanded a wee bit off. Well... to cut a long story short, I must have sanded the corks every day for about 2 weeks - until I finally got a good fit. It's amazing how little comes off with fine sand paper - and cork can really swell in the sort of humidity we have in Scotland.
Be brave, and get out the fine sandpaper...!
Be brave, and get out the fine sandpaper...!
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eilam
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Clark, when i got my Noy flute (which i love as well), the foot tenon was too tight, Pater told me that he does tend to make them a bit tight, and suggested i sand it a bit. I did, it still it tight, and i have rubber band for better grip on the end of the flute, i could send it down more, but by now, i kind of like the band, it grandfathered itself to the flute 
one more thing to keep in mind is, that it could be that the tenon is going out of round, in that case, sanding the cork may cause a leak?
good luck, eilam.
one more thing to keep in mind is, that it could be that the tenon is going out of round, in that case, sanding the cork may cause a leak?
good luck, eilam.
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Cathy Wilde
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My boxwood's tenons swell somewhat. In fact, it came to me from a more-humid place with cracks in both the barrel and the foot socket -- I'm assuming from tenon expansion.
What about writing Peter and seeing about replacing the cork lapping with thread? That might give you more latitude.
Also, I make sure I grease or beeswax that flute's tenons every time I play it -- for waterproofing as well as lubrication purposes.
What about writing Peter and seeing about replacing the cork lapping with thread? That might give you more latitude.
Also, I make sure I grease or beeswax that flute's tenons every time I play it -- for waterproofing as well as lubrication purposes.
Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.
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BillG
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Do you use beeswax as a general rule for other flutes or just specifically for the Boxwood? For cork or just for wrapped tenons?Cathy Wilde wrote: Also, I make sure I grease or beeswax that flute's tenons every time I play it -- for waterproofing as well as lubrication purposes.
Thanx,
BillG
BillG
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Cathy Wilde
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Hey, BillG --
I use the beeswax (mixed with a bit of almond oil) for threaded joints, and cork grease for cork-lapped ones. I don't know if my reasoning's right but it seems like thread needs more waterproofing and cork needs more -- well, greasing! (although each substance performs both functions to a degree)
My blackwood flutes I (on average) grease or wax every other time I play (I tend to play for a minimum of 2 hours per, so there's a fair amount of moisture going on).
[NOTE: I should bring up that as Loren has pointed out, beeswax can build up and be hard to clean out of things like cracks and such, so it's probably wise not to go overboard (although I just scrape excess buildup away with a toothpick or popsicle stick myself) with the stuff as yours truly seems to like to do
].
The boxwood flute gets a swipe from the beeswax block every time I put it together. It is also still being oiled more frequently as well, although I'm hoping that soon I can back off on that a bit, too -- but it had been "in drydock" quite a while before I got it, so it was highly absorbent.
I use the beeswax (mixed with a bit of almond oil) for threaded joints, and cork grease for cork-lapped ones. I don't know if my reasoning's right but it seems like thread needs more waterproofing and cork needs more -- well, greasing! (although each substance performs both functions to a degree)
My blackwood flutes I (on average) grease or wax every other time I play (I tend to play for a minimum of 2 hours per, so there's a fair amount of moisture going on).
[NOTE: I should bring up that as Loren has pointed out, beeswax can build up and be hard to clean out of things like cracks and such, so it's probably wise not to go overboard (although I just scrape excess buildup away with a toothpick or popsicle stick myself) with the stuff as yours truly seems to like to do
].The boxwood flute gets a swipe from the beeswax block every time I put it together. It is also still being oiled more frequently as well, although I'm hoping that soon I can back off on that a bit, too -- but it had been "in drydock" quite a while before I got it, so it was highly absorbent.
Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.
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lesl
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There's that beeswax again Cat! (I just bought some in the sewing shop and couldn't remember what its for..)
I have been in the habit of greasing the tenons with cork grease each time before assembling the flute. I'm just wondering if there is build up of it on Clark's tenons. My top one gets rather tight after playing before I remember to carefully scrape off the residue.
I have been in the habit of greasing the tenons with cork grease each time before assembling the flute. I'm just wondering if there is build up of it on Clark's tenons. My top one gets rather tight after playing before I remember to carefully scrape off the residue.
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Cathy Wilde
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Hey, Lesl! In fact, I meant to fill you in at some point; sorry about that! 
You're so right about the residue removal. Seems like in the case of tenons, sockets and slides that are too loose or too tight it's either gunk 'em up or clean 'em up!
P.S. If you decide to experiment .... don't forget to mix some almond or raw linseed oil into the beeswax as you melt it. The ratio varies depending on how sticky or oily you want the result; John goes with about 6 - 10 drops as I recall, but I use a bit more because my first go seemed too waxy.
I've had good luck using a disposable foil pie pan over a saucepan of boiling water and then pouring the resulting mixture into an Altoids tin to form a nice neat block. Llining the Altoids tin with foil or wax paper (which can be discarded later) makes the block easier to remove once it's cool.
You're so right about the residue removal. Seems like in the case of tenons, sockets and slides that are too loose or too tight it's either gunk 'em up or clean 'em up!
P.S. If you decide to experiment .... don't forget to mix some almond or raw linseed oil into the beeswax as you melt it. The ratio varies depending on how sticky or oily you want the result; John goes with about 6 - 10 drops as I recall, but I use a bit more because my first go seemed too waxy.
I've had good luck using a disposable foil pie pan over a saucepan of boiling water and then pouring the resulting mixture into an Altoids tin to form a nice neat block. Llining the Altoids tin with foil or wax paper (which can be discarded later) makes the block easier to remove once it's cool.
Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.
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Loren
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Hi Clark,
Sorry for the delayed reply here, I just got back from a vaction in Florida. Unfortunately I'm at work at the moment and only have a second, but will reply in depth as soon as I can. In the mean time, here's the short of it:
You tenon is absorbing moisture and swelling, which can cause major problems. My suggestion for the moment is this: Oil the flute well, and don't play it for a few days. I'll write more later.
Lorenn
Sorry for the delayed reply here, I just got back from a vaction in Florida. Unfortunately I'm at work at the moment and only have a second, but will reply in depth as soon as I can. In the mean time, here's the short of it:
You tenon is absorbing moisture and swelling, which can cause major problems. My suggestion for the moment is this: Oil the flute well, and don't play it for a few days. I'll write more later.
Lorenn