Is this possible or am I insane?

artsohio · Post by **artsohio** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:21 pm

Realizing of course, the two aren't mutually exclusive...

I've always played flat, on any flute of any style. Teachers cringe, conductors stare and I can only pull up the pitch by really concentrating on breath control.

Today I was playing my silver flute, doing long tones in the mirror, looking at my VERY crooked embouchure and thinking about a recent discussion here about placing holes when making a bamboo flute.

Then it occurred to me, I center my lower lip on the embouchure hole but I actually blow halfway between the middle of my top lip and the left corner of my mouth (I have an exagerated "cupid's bow shape" on the top lip so blowing out the middle is impossible). Could this extra distance (probably about a centimeter) be what has me chronically flat? This sounds almost too simple. I've had years of lessons and no one has ever brought this up. I've always been told that I "just play flat."

I'm wondering if I should try to play out of the right side of my mouth, center my bottom lip differently or just forget about it and keep doing what I've been doing. Could this even be an issue or is it too minute a difference to worry about?

Ideas?

Tom O'Farrell · Post by **Tom O'Farrell** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:52 pm

You may be insane but there we are there, is'nt much I can do about that, but you possibly could alleviate your suffering a bit by raising your right elbow an inch or two and also pushing it a bit further away from your body. Worked for me. I suppose it directs the air down the flute better.
I understand Marcel Moise had a really crooked mouth as well.

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:54 pm

I'd definitely try shifting your lip position so the airstream is centered on the embouchure...it might help.

I've got similar issues and for me the centered airstream (regardless of where my lips end up) is the key issue.

Eric

artsohio · Post by **artsohio** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:58 pm

I understand Marcel Moise had a really crooked mouth as well.

So did Jean Pierre Rampal. I, however, am proof positive that playing ability and crooked mouths are not linked

artsohio · Post by **artsohio** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:00 pm

the centered airstream (regardless of where my lips end up) is the key issue.

It's going to take a bit of relearning, but I think that will be the best way to go.

springrobin · Post by **springrobin** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:11 pm

Since no one has a truly perfect embouchure and the dimensions of flutes vary, there are adjustments that can be made to bring you up to pitch. Good breath support is very important, but it's not so easy when you're running out of air. Try rolling the flute away (out) from you to raise the pitch a bit, especially on sustained notes as the strength of the breath stream gets weaker. Also, make sure your chin is up and your flute isn't drooping as this can put a sort of kink in the windpipe.

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:14 pm

I do the same thing I always wondered why the Flutes were out of tune I neve3r thought of the possiblity that this was me.

Aren't we all insane?

artsohio · Post by **artsohio** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:26 pm

Try rolling the flute away (out) from you to raise the pitch a bit, especially on sustained notes as the strength of the breath stream gets weaker.

I've been rolling out and "eyes to the skies" since fifth grade

I'm still flat. Most flutes are tuned to be pulled out a bit, allowing some wiggle room. I'm routinely pushed in and still flat.

Edited to add: Thanks, Springrobin and welcome from another relative newbie to the board! I didn't mean to sound snotty wth the first sentence, I meant it to show just how long I've been flat. I'm constantly pushed in and rolled out! I'm beginning to think I'm the brunt of a big practical joke and everyone keeps changing all the tuners of the world.

strayaway child · Post by **strayaway child** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:16 pm

Janet, I have had to deal with a similar problem. When you play in front of the mirror, look for the stream of condensation on the embouchure plate that indicates the direction of the airstream (easier when the flute is cold). Then move the position of your lips on the embouchure plate to center the airstream on the embouchure hole. You will likely notice a significant improvement in intonation and tone. Then it's just a matter of learning to do this without the aid of a mirror. This method works on wood or metal flutes but is easier to see on the metal ones. Good luck!

S.C.

bang · Post by **bang** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:16 pm

artsohio wrote:I've been rolling out and "eyes to the skies" since fifth grade :)

I'm still flat.

Janet- there is some kind of a connection between how tightly focused our airstream is and how far out we can angle the flute. or maybe it's that a smaller embouchure, higher velocity airstream will naturally be a little sharper than a larger, airy blow. you might consider working on a tighter, harder tone for a bit.

also, maybe play around w/ your embouchure generally. try different ways to sharpen a tone: jutting the jaw, tightening the lips, blowing harder, etc. even try out extreme variations of these things & see what happens.

fwiw, /dan

artsohio · Post by **artsohio** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:23 pm

Thanks for all the suggestions. Y'all have definitely given me some things to fiddle around with this winter! Maybe I can conquer my intonation issues once and for all.

It's also nice to hear that a few other people have the same issues. I always thought most fluters were sharp. Now I don't feel like such an oddball.

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:35 pm

Unseen122 wrote:.......

Aren't we all insane?

Yes, but your we and my we are not at all the same.

bang · Post by **bang** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:30 pm

artsohio wrote:Thanks for all the suggestions.

alas, none that clearly answered your original question about centering embouchure and pitch.

wish the photos on this page of embouchure pictures were bigger. at least one (P) looks like someone using a "sideways" embouchure:
http://www.larrykrantz.com/embpic.htm

a centered embouchure seems pretty basic, so moving towards that could make a big difference in a lot of ways. let us know how it goes.

enjoy! /dan

Nelson · Post by **Nelson** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:23 pm

Janet, I am the one who is crazy. I do not know why you do not do what to me is the obvious thing: Sound the best quality sound. Then adjuat the slid so you are not flat. I know you are a much more experienced flutest than I, so what am I mission?

Nelson

artsohio · Post by **artsohio** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:40 am

Nelson wrote:Janet, I am the one who is crazy. I do not know why you do not do what to me is the obvious thing: Sound the best quality sound. Then adjuat the slid so you are not flat. I know you are a much more experienced flutest than I, so what am I mission?

Nelson

You're not seeing the extent of my flatness. We're talking concavity here.

I am usually pushed in all the way unless I concentrate very hard on support to raise the pitch. I know that causes problems because in performance situations sometimes I get lazy (especially in cramped pit work where I'm thinking more about how to quietly rid the cramp from my leg than tucking in my diaphragm!) and the pitch goes down, down, down.... Plus, sometimes I need to tune to an organ or piano that is a tad sharp and I have absolutely no wiggle room.

If my perpetual flatness is the result of a correctable embouchure problem, fixing it would save me a lot of frustration.

I guess the easiest answer would be to save up my pennies and get a nice flute maker to make me a D-sharp flute

Doesn't fix things on the Boehm side, though. I'll never save up that many pennies!

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Is this possible or am I insane?

Is this possible or am I insane?

flat

Re: flat