Return flute to maker?

cocusflute · Post by **cocusflute** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:43 pm

I agree with Brad that it somehow seems wrong (selfish or self-indulgent) to put your name on several lists. It's a great luxury that many Americans are able to afford three or four expensive flutes from different makers (the American "equipment over technique" syndrome) and a shame that so many accomplished players have to wait so long for a good flute. I do have more than one flute, but all those that I bought new I have kept and the others have been purchased used.
But I also agree with Heather that one needs to play a flute for several hours, at least, to decide if it suits. Heather acted in good faith, unlike other players who have ordered flutes and then turned around and sold them for more than they paid the maker. If this is right, should Patrick Olwell then sell his flutes on Ebay, where they seem to bring more money than if he sold them to a player from his shop?
I think Heather might have done better to let Hammy and Peter know that she wanted to sell the flute and to have asked them who might be next on the list, and if they minded if she contacted them. Or she could have offered the flute for sale back to the maker. Patrick has made it clear that if a player orders from him and then sells one of his flutes at a profit then that person will never again get on a flute from his list.
The thing to do would be to offer the flute back to the maker, who could then pass it on to somebody next on the list. Makers might be advised to stipulate that their flutes are sold to be played, not parlayed into a profit, and that the maker has first option to buy-back for the first two years.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:59 pm

Interesting

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:37 pm

Oh, I think the whole question is difficult. I mean, it's one thing to buy a few flutes (if you can afford to do so), keep them all for a few months, and then sell off one or two: I guess I see no inherent problems with doing that. And, as for getting more than you pay for it: sure, if you buy a flute from Pat at his prices (the same as anyone else's), you can easily sell it for 50% more in a week's time. I think in a purely economic sense, Pat's just WAY undercharging for his work.

Remember a few years ago, Eamonn Cotter flutes were like Ir£700 for a six-key model? I remember hearing talk that once Cotter realized the potential of the American market, his prices went up accordingly. Hmm.

One other thing that occurs to me is that there is no way in h-e-double-toothpicks that you could time getting on the big boys' lists (say, Olwell, Wilkes, Grinter, Byrne, and Hamilton) to get the flutes anywhere near the same time to compare them. Talk about syzygy.

I guess I have a more moderate position because I really think you can't know what flute will be good for you unless you play and hear several. For rank beginners, I think they'll just have to find people they trust and go on faith with their first flute buys.

Stuart

Tradman · Post by **Tradman** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:00 pm

"I guess I have a more moderate position because I really think you can't know what flute will be good for you unless you play and hear several. For rank beginners, I think they'll just have to find people they trust and go on faith with their first flute buys. "

I agree. Although Im not a complete beginner, I have never owned a wood flute before (Ive become well acustomed to playing the heck out of the Moore plastic practice flute and each time I pick up a 'real' flute' I play it MUCH better). I know a bit about them, have played a few that I really liked, but Im doing the same with a situation right now. I dont know a lot of people who play George Ormiston's flutes, but I have the chance to buy one from a contact. Others here have posted good things but just like what is quoted above, Im just going on faith. Any input regarding Ormiston keyless D's?

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:43 pm

I have and play three wooden flutes - have had all three for well over a year and play them all - and I don't intend to sell any of them until I play at Carnege Hall. One of them is an Ormiston and I love it. It has all the volume I need and plays easily WHEN I'M ON.

and not so easily when I'm not - as is the case with almost any flute when you're a relative beginner as I am. George O. is super to deal with and his workmanship is superb.

Billg

Whistlin'Dixie · Post by **Whistlin'Dixie** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:34 pm

BillG wrote: WHEN I'M ON. and not so easily when I'm not - as is the case with almost any flute when you're a relative beginner as I am. Billg

I think that's a good statement ~ I've had my (used, but new to me

) Copley for a year now, and still find that I have many days when I don't sound as well as I'd like... And this is with a flute I play all the time, and feel I know pretty well. BUT, When everything "clicks", she's awesome!

Mary

BMFW · Post by **BMFW** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:33 am

I was discussing just this very topic, why we have off days and on days, with a fellow flautist at a session last week. We found that it wasn't so much just off days, you can be playing fine one minute and the next your playing sounds rotten.

My theory centres around the huge number of variables involved in playing the flute. In no particular order:- Shape of mouth, tension of lips, rotation of headjoint, alignment of flute vertically, alignment of flute horizontally, alignment of the planets! etc, etc. When it all comes together, great, but there's alot of potential for things to go wrong. The more you practice, the better the muscle memory and the more chance of everything lining up more often.

I don't play golf, but it seems to me that there are similarites in the number of variables invloved in striking the ball well - and even Tiger Woods can hit a duff shot every so often.

It's been said before, we're walking a tightrope every time we raise that flute to our lips!!!!

Happy balancing,

Graham

Doirlinn · Post by **Doirlinn** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:28 am

Sturob wrote:

I really think you can't know what flute will be good for you unless you play and hear several. For rank beginners, I think they'll just have to find people they trust and go on faith with their first flute buys.

True. I didn't have the chance to play too many flutes by different makers, and though American by birth I certainly don't fall into the category of those able to afford multiple flutes costing multiple thousands each. When I decided to go for my first proper flute my decision of which maker was more instinct than anything. I'd played one of his flutes before, very briefly. It was one of his early ones and I knew he'd been improving his design since. The waiting list wasn't too long, and the price was reasonable. In the end I was very fortunate. I love my flute and am growing into it comfortably. And I get the joy of much better players trying it and drooling...

I think instinct is worth a lot in music.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:48 am

I think a main point Stuart brings up is that beginners (and even those farther along) really won't know how good a flute truly is right away; if you're still having lots of "off" days, spending a grand or more will not give you many more "on" days, though you may have a bit of an easier time of it with a really well made flute and growth will or should be more rapid and - most importantly - in the right sonic direction. But, point is, after the excrutiating wait and wonderful moment that you receive your new flute, you are still left with yourself as a player. An Olwell, Grinter, and Wilkes, arriving miraculously in the mail in the same week (another fine point, Stuart -- they'll arrive months if not years apart) will leave you with three great flutes you won't really be able to play any better, for a while, than whatever you've been huffing into before.
A really good flute will guide you, much more than a not-so-good flute, but it becomes a symbiotic relationship, and it takes time. So, even if you chose the "wrong" flute by a great maker, there's probably years with it before you can really determine that another might suit you better. More likely, you'll discover it wasn't the wrong flute after all.
Gordon

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:19 am

I completly agree with Cocusflute here. It is a bit selfish to get on many waiting lists at a time and then sell of the flutes (espessially when profiting). I don't know but this whole thing with "if a flute dosn't fit me", I don't think is an excuse for keeping others (young talents perhaps) waiting because a guy across the sea who might already own fine instruments feel they can afford it. I belive (altough I'm not very experienced) that one can get used to a flute. And if not, return it to the maker. I don't know about all makers but Michael at M&E gives you all the money back if you are'nt pleased with the instrument. THEN get on another list. Or go to somewhere where you can try the flute out. That should give you an idea, even if you should spend a couple of weeks with it. I don't know about others, but I at least, would get a bit pissed if I would have to wait for years and years for my first quality flute because a bunch of americans have signed up on every waiting list they could find. If your serious about your playing. Get a flute and get used to it.

Cheers

gcollins · Post by **gcollins** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:23 pm

I love this conversation. We struggle with personal ethics. Most times in life, we do not mind cheating on our taxes or taking an extra benefit from a company one works for because one believes he or she "deserves" it.

...and I am not one to be the ruthless contrarian on a genteel forum such as this. but today I am. If something is legally for sale, and you can buy it and make a profit--why not do it? That's business and economics. Flute makers and related craftsmen choose their craft, and they choose to make a living. If a rank beginner or serious professional chooses to buy several flutes on lists, and then turns them around for a profit....most people (in terms of population in the world) would say that's smart. It is business, and a smart guy can pay for his new keyed flute through the profits of buying others and selling them. I don't think that's selfish, just market economics. Structure of the flute industry with demand that cannot be satisfied by waiting lists.

Micheal Copeland and Jim Rementer understand this well. they are no longer one of the few lone craftsman of high-end whistles. Others moved in and the crafts market for high-end whistles is loaded. Then they embarked to satiate the immediate demand for their whistles by changing their production processes and realizing faster revenue and more profitable cash flow. In the end, it's a business. If the makers just want to make a living becuase of love or music, there will always be those that make a business case out of those market dynamics--and good on 'em. That's what the world was built on....and why we in maturely developed countries have the luxury to call it selfish. Be entrepreneurial--I hate to hear a player cannot afford a good flute. He can. Just do business.

Perhaps musicians are, by nature or nurture, idealistic. I don't know. But that shouldn't stop anyone from taking advantage of opportunities to make money, if that's what they choose to do. And who can judge them selfish? (sorry, Brad, not trying to be an arse here).

Example: I sold my Olwell D flute at a nice profit after about a year to help fund the purchase of my original R&R. Pat knew I did this, and six months later my Olwell Bb arrived. and it's awesome.

Anyone want to buy a flute? I've got an awesome new 6-key Noy with amber embouchure, and my R&R has been repaired and includes a new beuteous headjoint and case (which also holds my patent head) by Terry McGee. I need to fund my Olwell 6-key...coming in about 2 or 3 years.

Just kidding.

G

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:06 pm

Arguments from pure capitalism worry me.
Here's one: 'If somebody is trying to sell something
and I don't want it, for any reason whatsoever,
nobody ought to be able to make me to buy it.
It's my money--if you think my reasons for
not buying are bad, fine--buy it yourself.
That's how free enterprise works.'

Sounds good, doesn't it? That was a principal
argument against legislation banning racial
discrimination in hiring (the purchase of the
sale of labor).

'If somebody wants to sell something
to me at a certain price, and I don't want to
pay it, the way the market works is that
they can go find somebody else who is willing
to pay their price--if they can. But I don't
have to pay it and they have no right
to compel me. And if somebody
is selling me something at a certain price,
and they want to up the price, I have the
right to seek what they're selling elsewhere.
That's just business and economics in a free
enterprise system'

A principal argument against labor unions.

It seems plain that business and economics
can be appropriately constrained by issues
of social utility and good faith. I might
sell an instrument for more than I purchased
it--but I don't think the appeal to 'how the market
works' is sufficient to justify getting on
flute lists with the intention of straightaway
selling the flutes at a handome profit on
account of the waiting list--though I grant it
would be entrepreneurial.

I'm afraid the Chinese are getting to you. Best

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:26 pm

This is a fascinating thread. I side with Jim & Co. The flute market is a microcosm of America right now with an ever widening rift between the rich and the poor. I think idealism is good. Just because you can charge more than something is worth, really worth with regard to time and effort to make, does not make it right. Think about the ever upward spiral of capitalism. It's built on ever increasing prices, cheaper goods, and the need for near slave labor to supply our needs. It's also based on the eternal need for the commoner to always need/buy more - whether or not we really need it or whether or not we can afford it.

I challenge anyone to take the time to talk to the elderly or dying, or at least read some of the books on this topic, and you'll rarely find anyone who says "I wish I'd bought more things". The normal response is that people wish they spent more time with others or doing more things they actually wanted to do. I think the moral here is that things, and capitalism, do no encompass the human condition. We're meant to love, and spend time doing things we love, and we should just say no to the ever increasing greedy spiral most of the developed world is caught in.

There, I've outed myself as being part of the simple living movement. Perhaps my next flute, if I need a keyed one, should be a 4 keyed Sweetheart since he is one of the few flute makers whose prices remain in the realm of the common man.

Eric (who is apparently much more of a raging socialist than even he realized)

gcollins · Post by **gcollins** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:00 am

Absolutely fascinating thread. I am way out of the American mainstream, and my opinions, while seemingly purely rational, strike such negative chords in American alternative lifestyle folks. I am one of those alternative folks that found himself in the midst of the Wall Street's love of the China Dream just because I dug the language.

Right on, Eric! Selling people? No one's talking about the slippery slopes, we're talking about the buying and selling stalks of wood with sterling silver fittings that someone has paintakingly chosen to craft and devote their life to. Nothing remotely un-American or threatening the American strip malls or large controlling Corporate America.

I've seen through the years a negative reaction to the immigrants who buy and run the businesses that young americans would never consider. The Koreans and Indians who run most of the country's 7-11's; the japanese and mexicans who run all the teriyaki joints; the famous old Chinese laundrys and restaurants (why do you think it is that we Americans pay $30 for two people to eat Chinese food that costs $1 in materials and another $1 in labor?). It is small business at its best. Self employment. No bosses to get pissed off at. Don't be threatened by this. Just see what they do and say to yourself...sh*t! These folks without education are making more money to support the future of their families than I am working in the Best Buy warehouse or Washington Mutual Bank or Microsoft.

Why is it that my main man Loren is out of work in Boulder, Co, when he could easily get a government grant and a loan for 0% to buy an espresso cart and free make a bit of living for himself, expand that in a month to two carts, then pay off the government in three months while expanding to 6 carts? He could have played the cocus cannon all day long, while the wealthy college students he hires sell espresso for minimum wage. The country is crying out for the very entrepreneurialism that made it so powerful. Even in Eugene, Oregon, my old haunt, the hippies figured out how to run espresso carts and grow ganja instead of working for the man. I love it.

When you come to the US with your mind wired differently....you realize all the opportunities that Americans no longer see. The strip malls and big business interests have diverted our attention. The US government, through the Small Business Administration gives entrepreneurs all the chances it can, and they open the door by giving you free money and tax incentives to do it. Check out the incentives for small business in ther new tax law.

Guys, we're not talking about arguments for slavery, human rights violations, and George Bush invasions. We're talking about flutes. If you can't afford one, you have a chance to fund one through free enterprise.

With all due respect, my dear customers. I'll do whatever it takes to satisfy your urge for good espresso. And a nice flute.

I'll say no more. this thread has diverted from the mission of the forum. but I hope that it has opened some doors for those who cannot afford a flute...and maybe a few others.

G

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:08 am

G,
What you've said is true, to a point, but as off-topic as Eric's response.
We are talking flutes here made by a small group of craftsman dedicated to making instruments for us to play. Very one-on-one. If I spend a bit of my time, and the maker's time, discussing what I want, we come to an agreement on both artistic and consumer grounds; I've agreed to purchase a hand-crafted instrument, and I've commissioned a man (or woman, but I can't think of one off-hand) to make it for me.
Now, from your prospective, it is perfectly all right to go through this dance, only to resell said flute for a profit. Capitalism at it's best, but as a human being, I'm not sure how you go through it. Rather than discussing capitalism v. socialism, how about good faith vs. bad?
The original thread here was not about whether something is legal or illegal, the American way or the Chinese (hey, aren't they communist over there? Flutes should be evenly distributed, no?), but rather whether -- in this small group of musicians and craftsman -- word should be bond, and faith should be good. Ethics between individuals.
For this reason, I've always felt that re-sold flutes should be at market value (which is often a profit, anyway -- I bought my Hamilton around three years ago, and it has risen in cost almost a third higher than I paid originally; I'd make a huge profit just selling it at Hammy's current price), and not at an inflated price. Of course, if someone wants to buy a flute for hundreds of dollars more than the current market, yes, that's their business. I just wouldn't abuse the system in that way, myself, any more than I'd talk to a private craftsman in good faith, all the while scheming to resell it at a profit for yet another flute I have on order in a matter of week.
If I can't afford it, I don't order it. If I know what I really want, that's the one I'll order. Of course, other things in life come along, so sometimes opportunities do present themselves, but scheming is quite another thing.
Lastly, yes, Eric, Sweetheart does keep his costs down for the common man, but unfortunately, they are rather common flutes.
Gordon

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Return flute to maker?

Return flute to maker?

I agree-what about the Ormiston?