Flattening the second octave

[Cyberknight]

I'm about 9 months into playing the flute, and the biggest thing holding me back is intonation. I don't think the problem is my flute - I seem to have the same issues when I borrow someone else's flute.

I like the sound I get from the lower octave, but I have a lot of trouble getting the second octave to flatten so it's the same pitch as the first octave. Does anyone have any good tricks for flattening that second octave a bit? It gets 20+ cents sharp sometimes, and it sounds bad when I play with other people. I've tried changing the angle of air, but it doesn't seem to help much.

[Flutern]

This is a problem I suffered from for a while. I suppose there can be several causes, but for me it was the fact that I was blowing too much across, as opposed to into, the embouchure hole in the second octave. This resulted in a sound that was both sharp and shrill, especially around high A and B (and beyond ). I came to realize that after reading this book (for Boehm players, but most of it applies to simple system flutes):
https://www.amazon.ca/-/fr/Robin-Soldan ... C73&sr=8-1

[NicoMoreno]

If an experienced player has played your flute and it's definitely not the flute's problem, then I'd guess that the real issue is that your bottom octave is flat. You likely aren't blowing the bottom octave into tune correctly.

[jim stone]

Strong focused embouchure, blow down into the hole, try to play the second octave notes less loud (or at least no louder) than the first octave. I think of 'crafting' the second octave notes. Takes practice.

[Loren]

If an experienced player has played your flute and it's definitely not the flute's problem, then I'd guess that the real issue is that your bottom octave is flat. You likely aren't blowing the bottom octave into tune correctly.

Yes, I’d suspect this (first) as well.

No real tricks to fix intonation, just practice, preferably with a good strobe tuner.

[paddler]

You need to work on tightening up your embouchure, especially in the second octave. It is common for new players to have a fairly large, open, embouchure ... and here I'm talking about the gap between your lips, not the hole in the flute. This is not only inefficient in terms of air usage, but it also makes it hard to play second octave notes quietly, or in tune. The second octave requires a faster air stream than the lower octave, and this should be achieved by tightening up the embouchure rather than by blowing harder. The latter is a very common mistake new players make, simply because their embouchure muscles are not well trained yet (so they can't tighten up their embouchure), and it leads to second octave notes being sharp, loud and harsh sounding. As Jim said, practicing playing second octave notes as quietly as possible, and focusing on clarity of tone while playing long notes, is a good way to improve. If you find that your cheek muscles get tired while doing this, then that is a sign you are doing something right. It is exercising those embouchure muscles, and as they strengthen and gain endurance, your embouchure will get tighter and you'll be able to play those high notes cleaner, quieter, more in tune, and for longer.

If you want a demanding embouchure workout, try playing a piccolo or high pitched fife. After a while doing that, the upper notes on your D flute will seem easy.

The other thing you could try is pushing the cork out a couple of mm, i.e., increase the distance from the center of the embouchure hole to the face of the stopper. This will flatten the second octave notes relative to the first.

[Steve Bliven]

No real tricks to fix intonation, just practice, preferably with a good strobe tuner.

Another option to the tuner is to play against a set of drones. There are several web sites available that provide constant drones. This allows you to adjust your embouchure to work with the drones aurally as opposed to watching a tuning meter.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Cyberknight]

Thank you all for your advice! Much appreciated. I'll focus on narrowing my airstream rather than blowing harder, and remember to blow into the flute more than across!

[david_h]

Following from suggestions that it’s the bottom octave that’s the problem. I find it a lot harder to change the pitch of the second octave than of the first. You could try setting the tuning slide for the second G against a tuner then blowing the first into tune against a drone.

[tstermitz]

I also had to work to avoid playing sharp. Jim's and Paddler's comments helped me a lot.

One other question is: How much of the embouchure hole do your lips cover?

In-person flute lessons once a month or even once per quarter are very helpful in speeding your learning and correction habits before they become ingrained.

[Cyberknight]

Following from suggestions that it’s the bottom octave that’s the problem. I find it a lot harder to change the pitch of the second octave than of the first. You could try setting the tuning slide for the second G against a tuner then blowing the first into tune against a drone.

I actually don’t believe this is primarily the problem. Once I sit down and micro-adjust my embouchure a bit, I can get the lower octave loud and clear. It wasn’t like this before, but after months of practice, I’ve gotten the lower octave in tune even with the tuning slide pulled out.

I also had to work to avoid playing sharp. Jim's and Paddler's comments helped me a lot.

One other question is: How much of the embouchure hole do your lips cover?

In-person flute lessons once a month or even once per quarter are very helpful in speeding your learning and correction habits before they become ingrained.

Yes, the advice on here was helpful. Today I think I finally realized what the problem is. It all comes down to blowing too much “across” and not enough “in” in the upper register. I’d heard this advice before, but I needed to be reminded of it. I’ve been playing with a tuner and getting it on the green in both octaves by adjusting my jaw so that the airstream is more downward for the second octave. I just have to remember to jut my jaw out the tiniest, tiniest bit and the second octave flattens into tune. (Hopefully I’m doing this right! It’s possible I completely misinterpreted the advice Flutern and Jim Stone, and what I’m doing just happens to work).

I’m not really sure if the jaw jutting out is what’s causing it to flatten (my guess is that it isn’t). Perhaps it’s making the octave switch easier, allowing me to blow lighter, bringing the note into tune.

In answer to your question, my lip covers very very little of the blowhole itself. Just a millimeter or so.

[paddler]

I’m not really sure if the jaw jutting out is what’s causing it to flatten (my guess is that it isn’t). Perhaps it’s making the octave switch easier, allowing me to blow lighter, bringing the note into tune.

I think you are right. The tiny movement of the jaw helps to switch octaves, allowing you to avoid doing it by blowing harder. Just thinking about tightening the embouchure for the second octave is usually enough to cause some change. It won't be long before you don't have to think about it at all, and it just happens naturally when you think about the sound you want your flute to make. It is a bit of a journey, but developing this intuitively flexible and focused embouchure is one of the great joys of flute playing. I've been playing the flute for over 50 years now, so my embouchure seems to just happen naturally. If only I could say the same for my fingering! That used to be the easy bit, but hand problems (a severe case of Dupuytren's contracture, and the onset of arthritis) have turned the tables me and now that is my main challenge.

[tstermitz]

In answer to your question, my lip covers very very little of the blowhole itself. Just a millimeter or so.

That sounds like very little coverage. I've heard 1/4 to 1/3 of the hole, but I'm not a teacher.

If you cover too little, then you will definitely be sharp. You can adjust the cork, but now you are making adjustments to the flute rather than learning the best technique. You can get used to playing too sharp or too flat, but consider that you want to be somewhere in the middle if you want easy intonation adjustments - up or down.

I only discovered I played too sharp after getting a patent head flute which comes from the factory with a preferred cork placement. Well also, my session mates complained about playing too sharp in the second register. To be fair to me, I play sharp when I'm not warmed up, and also when I get nervous and my embouchure goes to hell.

[Cyberknight]

In answer to your question, my lip covers very very little of the blowhole itself. Just a millimeter or so.

That sounds like very little coverage. I've heard 1/4 to 1/3 of the hole, but I'm not a teacher.

If you cover too little, then you will definitely be sharp. You can adjust the cork, but now you are making adjustments to the flute rather than learning the best technique. You can get used to playing too sharp or too flat, but consider that you want to be somewhere in the middle if you want easy intonation adjustments - up or down.

I only discovered I played too sharp after getting a patent head flute which comes from the factory with a preferred cork placement. Well also, my session mates complained about playing too sharp in the second register. To be fair to me, I play sharp when I'm not warmed up, and also when I get nervous and my embouchure goes to hell.

We're talking about the bottom lip, right? That's the only lip that's "covering" the hole, if by "covering" you mean actually obscuring it. And if I move it forward so it's covering 1/4 of the hole, everything flattens (particularly the first octave) and it has a really breathy, quiet sound with a rather bad tone. I can only get it to sound good if my bottom lip is barely covering the hole at all.

When I watch flute instructors playing, it doesn't look like they're covering the hole that much with their bottom lip either. For example: https://youtu.be/F3sZBlC9ny8?t=321

[paddler]

I was under the impression that you were only sharp in the second octave, and not the first. I don't think that is caused by a coverage issue, because covering more embouchure hole should flatten both first and second octave more or less equally. It may be worth experimenting with various levels of coverage to get the kind of tone you want, but I don't think it really affects the octave balance. In my experience, it does have some effect on intonation, in the sense that covering more of the embouchure hole seems to flatten the left hand notes (C#, B, A etc) more than the right hand notes, kind of like pulling out the tuning slide, but at least for me it doesn't seem to have a different effect in the second octave than the first.

On the cork position issue, I'm not convinced that there is an optimal cork position for a flute taken in isolation of the player. And I know this may be controversial given the patent heads on some R&R flutes. But I think it is important to understand that the player's mouth and vocal tract cavities, and even face shape, also influence the resonances that occur, and these are different for different players. The flute is only part of the instrument, so to speak. I think each player should experiment with the cork position of their flute in order to find the tone and octave spacing that best matches their goals. And, of course, the goals are also subjective.