A message from beyond the grave...

[Terry McGee]

Landed on my desk today, a head and barrel from a flute made by William Madelaine, 553 Old Kent Road, Bermondsey, London; listed as a flute maker between 1883 and 1894. This flute appears to be in the Prattens style, which would work with those dates.

It was not a pretty sight. Both head and barrel featured full length cracks, the head crack passing through the embouchure. The line of least resistance. But further, the metal lining in the head had come loose, so any attempt to pull the head out from the barrel simply pulled the head off its slide. The reason for that became clear - the head slide was firmly stuck in the barrel slide. Very firmly. I certainly couldn't budge it by hand.

Indeed, I wondered if it had been glued - it was that firm. But why would anyone glue a head into the barrel? Especially with the slide fully closed. It would be too sharp to tune to anyone!

I was able to slip the rings off each end of the barrel, thus allowing me to loosen the wood around the barrel slide, but it didn't want to simply come off. But at least it's loose. I didn't want it to incur any further damage in the next operation...

I have a rig I made up many years ago for pressing stuck slides apart, so I mounted that up in the lathe. Using the lathe just as a horizontal easily controllable press, not using the motor to spin anything. And started gently applying pressure to the lower end of the inner slide, while a delrin die kept the barrel slide in place. Pressure builds, nothing happens. Keep tightening, hoping. Tightening, tightening. Suddenly, an audible crack, and the inner slide pushes forward into the chuck space. And the wooden barrel comes free.

It's all over. I didn't even have to keep using the press to push the slide right out. It's free and moving smoothly. I disassemble it all by hand.

And now, I can reassemble the slide by hand, and it works smoothly. No sign at all of grabbing. So what can we make of that?

I can only assume that a buildup of breath condensate over a long period (a century or more perhaps?) had glued the slide together. So well, that the head opted to come off the slide rather than breaking the bond between the slides. That tells us something about how good a glue breath condensate is if let to set.

And we have seen often enough in this forum owners lamenting "stuck tuning slide". It's that glue.

So the "message from beyond the grave" is from William Madelaine from over a century ago. He's reminding us to clean our tuning slides. At least once per century!

Why not give yours a bit of a wipe now? A rag moistened with alcohol does a great job. Clean the outside of the male slide, and the inside of the female slide. Then add a smear of cork grease or a similar lubricant. That will minimise wear, keep the breath condensate at bay, and keep things moving smoothly.

Any old alcohol will do - ethanol, iso-propanol, whatever. Doesn't have to be Jamesons....

[gbyrne]

I use “anti-” lubricant for tuning slide. You don’t want it to be free moving. You want it moveable but such that once you set in place it holds until or unless you move it.

This kind of stuff: https://www.dawkes.co.uk/ultra-pure-hea ... ants/12431

Horrible tacky/sticky stuff but absolute magic for tuning slide. Feels like it’s superglued into position once set. Tiny amount keeps the tuning slide perfect for up to 12 months.

[Moof]

I use “anti-” lubricant for tuning slide. You don’t want it to be free moving. You want it moveable but such that once you set in place it holds until or unless you move it.

This kind of stuff: https://www.dawkes.co.uk/ultra-pure-hea ... ants/12431

Thanks for that – my three-part whistle has got a bit loose, specially the bottom (non-tuning) section. I hadn't come across this grease before, and it sounds like just the job.

[Loren]

Terry wrote:

“I can only assume that a buildup of breath condensate over a long period (a century or more perhaps?) had glued the slide together. So well, that the head opted to come off the slide rather than breaking the bond between the slides. That tells us something about how good a glue breath condensate is if let to set.“


I’m going to have to disagree regarding this theory based on some experiences over the years:

Years before I worked at the recorder workshop, I managed a musical instrument store …..“Sherman, set The Wayback Machine for the mid-80’s”……..

This store sold instruments (of course), but we also had a very busy band instrument rental component: We rented hundreds of band instruments, including flutes, trumpets, trombones, saxophones, French horns, etc, to local elementary and high school kids every year.

Now of course with hundreds of band instrument rentals comes a fair amount of repair work, plus a ton of servicing those instruments as they come and go throughout the school year, and from year to year. We did have a woodwind repair shop on site, which was the only way to keep up with all the repairs and maintenance. I didn’t work in the repair shop, but I checked in most returns and repairs, before they went to our repair guy, who I spoke with weekly, if not daily. Point of all this being, I have encountered more stuck tuning slides and mouthpieces than I could possibly count. Usually we’d be able to free them with the slide/mouthpiece puller that we kept under the counter, but sometimes more drastic measures were required by the repair guy back in the shop. We definitely had discussions amongst ourselves about the causes of these stuck parts, and also with the rental customers to educate them. Based on what we all saw, the causes of stuck slides fell into these categories:

1. Using the wrong product to grease the slide.
Cork grease isn’t slide grease, or at least wasn’t back then. The cork grease of the time tended to change consistency, gum up and dry out, causing slides to freeze. Another problem was kids using slide oil in place of slide grease. Tolerances and/or materials are different for different instrument parts that are meant to slide, so using tuning slide grease on a trombone slide doesn’t work out so well, and putting slide oil on a tuning slide can cause a surprising amount of sticking. Of course kids forget their maintenance products at home, or lose them, and they borrow whatever the kid next to them is using on their horn, not figuring there’s any real difference mechanically between a flute, trombone, and a sax….. so pretty soon they’re in front of me in the shop with a problem.

So, slides stick when people use the wrong products on their slides, or they may even use a proper product but it has seriously degraded over time, so clean off any old slide grease before applying your new gunk.

2. Greasing a slide that wasn’t meant to be greased.
I’ll keep this one brief because I’ve said this here before: The tolerances are too tight to be using a slide grease on a slide that was designed to be used dry. It may work fine at first, but eventually you are going to have a slide that is difficult or impossible to move. Hear me now and believe me later, as Hans and Franz would say.

3. Build-up of debris that has embedded itself in the exposed part of your greased slide, which then works its way in-between the inner and outer tube sections. This also applies to #2 above. Either scenario has a bunch of crud building up where it shouldn’t by hitching a ride on your slide grease, which you probably used too much of as well.

4. Eating and drinking before playing without rinsing your mouth or brushing your teeth. When you do this you are sending food particles and sugars down the bore and some of that will make it into your slide parts where it turns gummy, sticky, eventually solid, and always disgusting. Oh yeah, and this matter can freeze you slide in place like nobody’s bidness.

5. Tarnish build-up.
If you fail to move your slide regularly, it will eventually seize up due to a build up of tarnish, even if you aren’t playing the instrument. This is a somewhat common occurrence with Copeland whistles for example, and I’ve also had my Abell slide get almost unmovable by hand when I haven’t played it at all for many months. I know tarnish is the issue because tarnish is visible on the slide parts and a quick touch up with a polishing cloth removes the tarnish and returns the slide to normal function every time. This is most common on dry fit slides, due to the typically tighter tolerance - that tarnish takes up space between the slide tubes, space you don’t have!


IMO, there’s no reason to think that breath condensate alone is likely to cause a slide to freeze, though I suppose exhaled mineral deposits could eventually build up…but I’d have to research that. However what your breath is carrying from your mouth into your flute, well yeah, that burger and beer you consumed between sets could be what’s gumming up the works for sure!

[Conical bore]

I use “anti-” lubricant for tuning slide. You don’t want it to be free moving. You want it moveable but such that once you set in place it holds until or unless you move it.

This kind of stuff: https://www.dawkes.co.uk/ultra-pure-hea ... ants/12431

That's interesting, I might try it next time. My go-to for a tuning slide that's a little too slippery and rotates the embouchure hole out of position when I'm playing is something that might horrify flute makers, but I learned about it here on C&F.

It's toilet bowl wax. That big circular ring of wax you buy at a hardware store to seal the base of a toilet against the floor. It's fairly hard but softens under a little finger pressure, and it does a nice job with just a vary small, very thin application on a tuning slide.

[Terry McGee]

Nah, I still reckon what's sticking up our slides is breath condensate. Think about this....
- What do all flute players, from the earliest days to now, pour down their flutes? Their dank breath.
- And what does it leave behind? Breath condensate.
- And why do we mop out our flutes after playing? Breath condensate.
- What comes driggling out of the end of your flute after a few hours at the session? Breath condensate.
- And have you ever accidentally driggled some on your hand? Yetch!
- What makes it so sticky? Breath condensate.
- What raises the grain in the wooden sections of your flute? Breath condensate.
- What clogs up your tin whistle windway? Breath condensate.
- Why do brass instruments have little taps? To let out the breath condensate.
- And if brass instrument players don't clean out their tuning slides and valves? They jam!

It's the one thing all these situations have in common.

Working some more on the Madelaine flute head today, I needed to clean out the really filthy head bore. It was probably one of the worst I had encountered! Some fine sandpaper on a stick with the head liner spinning in the lathe got rid of most of it quite quickly, but left a very corroded patch, on the side approximately opposite the embouchure hole and in the area starting a bit below the embouchure and stopping near the end of the slide. It's as if a corrosive liquid built up there and did more corrosion than elsewhere in the head tube. It's the logical place for breath condensate to build up, but is it so corrosive (or precipitative?) that it will leave byproducts that I have quite a bit of difficulty removing?

I ended up having to put my sanding stick spinning protruding from the lathe chuck, so that I could direct the sanding action just to that area. That worked well, but took some effort. Hmmm...

Now, here's an interesting question. When I play my flute in a session, it gets wet enough that water will drip from the end. But when I play my whistle at a session, it doesn't. Is it because when playing the flute, I'm aiming the air down into it, but when playing the whistle, the ramp is redirecting most of the air out the window?

[paddler]

All flutes get breath condensation, but many don't have stuck tuning slides. So I'd say it is unlikely that breath condensation is the main cause. There are lots of ways you can gum up a slide, and sometimes they even corrode together depending on the combination of materials involved. I've encountered some that were impossible to separate, even with complete destruction of the head liner and slide outer. But most are pretty easy to separate, even after ~200 years.

I do think it is a good idea to keep your slide clean though.

[Terry McGee]

All flutes get breath condensation, but many don't have stuck tuning slides. So I'd say it is unlikely that breath condensation is the main cause.

Nah. The ones that don't have the stuck tuning slides have just been cleaned before they became stuck. Also, I'd guess that a slide combination with less clearance will gum up before a slide combination with a lot of clearance. Giving you a bit more time to wake up and clean the slide before it jams!

There are lots of ways you can gum up a slide, and sometimes they even corrode together depending on the combination of materials involved.

But corrosion normally takes place in the presence of moisture. And we know this particular moisture comes with sticky condensates.

I've encountered some that were impossible to separate, even with complete destruction of the head liner and slide outer. But most are pretty easy to separate, even after ~200 years.

I don't think I've struck any I couldn't separate, although some of them were tricky. My favourite being the one where the owner had used linseed oil to lubricate the slide. This became apparent when I had to resort to heating the slides with my gas torch. Fortunately, both head and barrel wood were split end to end, and I could get them off to allow the use of the torch. Whereupon the room filled with smoke and the smell of burning paint. Linseed oil!

Now here's a further bit of evidence. When you do strike an impossible-to-budge slide, the best solution I've come across is to run a hot metal rod up the barrel, rolling it around in the area where the slides overlap. In almost all cases, after a few minutes, the slides will separate with a little bit of rotating back and forward by hand. The heat softens the breath concentrate, allowing the parts to be separated. Then you wipe the mating surfaces with an alcohol soaked rag, and grease it. Now the slide works perfectly.

I do think it is a good idea to keep your slide clean though.

We can certainly agree on that! As soon as you notice the slide becoming snatchy, pull it out and clean and lube it as mentioned above. You will be rewarded with a nice smooth slide.

[Moof]

Now, here's an interesting question. When I play my flute in a session, it gets wet enough that water will drip from the end. But when I play my whistle at a session, it doesn't. Is it because when playing the flute, I'm aiming the air down into it, but when playing the whistle, the ramp is redirecting most of the air out the window?

I don't play flute much, but it definitely produces a lot more condensate. But my breath for flute is coming from deeper in my chest than it is for high whistle; that might be part of the explanation, but it might also be lack of skill.

My whistle only tends to drip if I play with a lot of tonguing. I decided to add a bit more definition to my playing last year, which involved overdoing the tonguing and then cutting back as I worked out what I liked. The change in style made a big difference to how wet the whistle got.

[paddler]

I generally use heat to separate stuck slides, and this can often give a clue as to what caused them to get stuck. Shellack and beeswax seem to be quite common culprits, and sometimes bore oil.

It may well be the case that some tight-fitting slides end up seizing due to moisture and corrosion, but a lot of others fall into the opposite category, which is a loose fitting slide that was so loose that it was slipping out of place or leaking air, causing the owner to deliberately gum it up so that it stayed in place and stopped leaking. And then the flute was left for 100+ years! You can tell when this is the case because not only you find out what was causing it to stick when you apply high heat (you can smell it burning off), but once cleaned up, the bare metal slide is once again very loose, slips and leaks air. I have found this to be, by far, the most common situation when restoring antiques.

[david_h]

What are these “sticky condensates” ? The Wikipedia page on Breathing gives 5-6% water vapour and ‘trace’ quantities of VOCs, with those lifted after ammonia at 1ppm. Is the condensate sticky if we breath into a chilled glass tube?

[Terry McGee]

I doubt if you just breathed into an ice-cold tube that you would find the condensate sticky, for the reasons you mention. We breath out mostly gases, a bit of water and some other stuff, and the other stuff is a tiny proportion of the whole. And what it comprises depends on lots of things, including your health and your diet.

But imagine over say the length of a year how much expelled air you breath down that poor flute. Gigalitres? And so bit by bit, the scunge builds up, molecule by molecule, until it's enough to remind you your slide needs cleaning. (Unless of course, you are one of those fastidious people who sits there in the pub, long after the banjo players have packed and run, carefully cleaning off the outside of your head tuning slide and the inside of the barrel one!)

And imagine after several years of inadequate maintenance, the flute head sticks fast, and the flute gets put away because it can't be tuned. Then years later...

[Terry McGee]

I don't play flute much, but it definitely produces a lot more condensate. But my breath for flute is coming from deeper in my chest than it is for high whistle; that might be part of the explanation, but it might also be lack of skill.

My whistle only tends to drip if I play with a lot of tonguing. I decided to add a bit more definition to my playing last year, which involved overdoing the tonguing and then cutting back as I worked out what I liked. The change in style made a big difference to how wet the whistle got.

Interesting observations, Moof. They serve to remind me that I'm not that self-aware. I think I just blow into the things! I'll try to be more observant in future!

[Moof]

[ I think I just blow into the things! I'll try to be more observant in future!

I'm sure I would if I could play flute to any standard above absolutely rudimentary! But when you're new to something, you do notice the different demands it makes.

[Terry McGee]

I generally use heat to separate stuck slides, and this can often give a clue as to what caused them to get stuck. Shellack and beeswax seem to be quite common culprits, and sometimes bore oil.

Bore oil in those days would probably have been almond oil (that's what the old sources recommended). Don't know what happens to that when it gets old and dried. But why would shellac and bore oil be up in the head? I'm still holding out for breath condensate, because we know its there in every flute, and we know that it tends to condense out in the lower end of the slide. So it's in just the right place to settle on the inside area of the outer slide that is exposed when we tune the flute.

It may well be the case that some tight-fitting slides end up seizing due to moisture and corrosion, but a lot of others fall into the opposite category, which is a loose fitting slide that was so loose that it was slipping out of place or leaking air, causing the owner to deliberately gum it up so that it stayed in place and stopped leaking. And then the flute was left for 100+ years! You can tell when this is the case because not only you find out what was causing it to stick when you apply high heat (you can smell it burning off), but once cleaned up, the bare metal slide is once again very loose, slips and leaks air. I have found this to be, by far, the most common situation when restoring antiques.

I haven't come across much in the way of loose period slides (even when cleaned up!). This Madelaine flute is a good example of a really well-fitted slide. Once separated, even before cleaning it, it moved smoothly, albeit a bit sluggishly. After cleaning off the gunge, it now moves effortlessly, but not loosely. The surfaces in the slide area are bright (and I haven't polished them), whereas the bore as mentioned was disgusting and took a lot of sanding and polishing to make it look like a flute bore again.

No sign of any seams, incidentally. You often see seams on earlier flute tubes.