Anyone like the big round embouchure?

[paddler]

It would be interesting to make or experience a "less-rounded-corners" rectangular hole with say an 8mm straight bit to see if we gain anything further, or start to lose because perhaps we can't service an 8mm wide strip, and it just includes too much waste space? Anyone got one they can try and report back on?

What you describe sounds quite close to the rectangular embouchure hole of my original HF Meyer flute, pictured below. The long axis of this embouchure hole is 11.4 mm, so the relatively straight portion of the embouchure edge is probably quite close to 8mm.

This flute plays very well. There isn't really a problem of losing because we can't service the wide strip. In fact, I don't think you need to service the whole strip. You could probably hit any portion of it and still get a nice tone. But it does have a subtly different tone to those early English flutes with the rounder embouchure. But of course, it also has a different bore, tone hole matrix, etc.

It is a lovely flute, just different in both voice and playing experience. I don't think I could really put into words precisely how it differs though. It is very payable, forgiving, loud, etc, but does it have that characteristic sound you are chasing that initially only exists in your mind's ear? For me, not quite. But we are certainly well within the realm of subjective preferences. I wouldn't claim that there is anything wrong with this flute. Quite the opposite, in fact. It is a design that inspired more copies than any other flute in history, probably by several orders of magnitude. It'll certainly work for ITM, but it isn't quite what I prefer for ITM.

[david_h]

To what extent (if any), when we adjust our embouchure to change pitch and/or tone and/or volume, are we shifting the jet relative to the sides of the hole? Either keeping it centred (if it is) but changing the "spread" or using the shape of the cut nearer one or other of the sides?

[paddler]

To what extent (if any), when we adjust our embouchure to change pitch and/or tone and/or volume, are we shifting the jet relative to the sides of the hole? Either keeping it centred (if it is) but changing the "spread" or using the shape of the cut nearer one or other of the sides?

Good question David, and I don't really have an answer, but I think it may help if we view the air jet that we direct across the embouchure as a kind of reed. We certainly do change the speed, direction and thickness (height and width) of that jet as we search for different effects. And the embouchure hole of the flute influences the distance that the air travels, which is essentially the length of the air reed. All of these factors likely affect the way the air reed influences and responds to the various frequencies of vibration that are established within the bore of the flute, and hence likely influences both the tuning and the relative weights of harmonics within each note produced.

When you look at an instrument such as the Uilleann pipes, which has physical reeds that you can manipulate with your fingers, you find that even slight adjustments to the reed can have profound effects on the tone and tuning, without changing anything about the bore or tone holes. It seems surprising at first, because as flute players we often tend to talk about tone hole size and spacing as the main determinants of tuning, only occasionally admitting to the influence of bore profile and other design aspects. But if you think about it, it is very obvious that our own manipulation of the air reed has very dramatic influence on tuning and harmonics. For example, an accomplished flute player can easily lip a note up or down over a range of a semitone if they put their mind to it, by doing nothing more than adjusting their embouchure. And, of course, we can switch octaves and harmonics the same way.

[busterbill]

This is reminding me of a Glenn Schultz made headjoint that was passed back and forth between two excellent players here in Chicago many years back. I don't know where it actually resides and haven't seen it for years. But it was visually a circle within an ivory insert. It was before the Ivory ban so I assume it was genuine Ivory. I am thinking the embouchure itself was pretty large, larger than most I've seen. They each played it on their own flutes, one on an antique Rudall and the other a lefty Olwell. It added volume to each flute for sure.

[RoberTunes]

"Big round" is actually two topics, of "Big" and "round". I am always seeking the most responsive, most efficient instrument,
I want it converting all the air to sound. I'd therefore suspect that the more that far edge of the tone hole is that collides with the
air stream is flat-faced and running parallel to the length of the flute tube, that as much of the air as possible is turning into clear
sound. If the hole is round or oval, it's bound to have some of that far surface being the sweet spot where sound is being produced efficiently,
and then as you go towards the left and right from there, the air is going to be wasted at a rapidly higher and higher % going towards
the limits left and right, as the surface bends away and redirects the air into ways that just confuse the purpose or waste it altogether.
Perhaps, and likely, some of that air becomes chiff or breathiness or a raspiness, but it's not musical.

That seems like a hell of a waste of space, maybe 40% of the area the air stream hits is wasted, since we're dealing with such a small distance to start with,
in all flutes and whistles, apart from calliopes and pipe organs. But flute tone holes aught to be as close to 100% efficient at
converting air to intended sound.

If your experience in this is also a big concern, write some flute makers with the idea and see if you get any responses back. I once wrote about
five flute makers who made quality head joints, with my concern about the concert flute lip plate causing a wind noise on the far side, as the
air stream always collided with it on the far side of the sound hole, because it was simply rounded and remained high, instead of being bent down out of the way. So, one of the flute makers
soon came out with a new lip plate design that had that far side of the lip plate pressed down so the air stream would flow out into space rather
than strike a surface and make that windy noise all the time. Manufacturers obsessed with their latest Mercedes who don't give a hoot about such things, will not respond. If you
get the cold mechanical corporate response of silence, don't be surprised. But also send your comments to some top flute players. They might respond back
to you, and forward your concerns to flute makers. It would be good to see posted here, the names of companies and flute players who participate in innovation
and are showing connection to the concerns of flute players.

[paddler]

RoberTunes, it seems to me that you are making two claims here (please correct me if I'm wrong): (a) that an embouchure cut with a blowing edge that runs parallel to the long axis of the flute is more efficient because it is perpendicular to the direction of air flow from the player's lips, and (b) the external surface of the flute (or its lip plate) beyond the blowing edge causes wind noise unless it is cut away.

After a little thought, I think I disagree with both of these. Here is why. The first claim seems to rest on the assumptions that the direction of the player's air flow is always precisely perpendicular to the long axis of the flute, and that the air does not fan out once it leaves the players lips. I would expect that in reality different players, or the same player at different times, have slight variations in the direction of airflow relative to the long axis of the flute. This would mean that much of the time a straight embouchure edge would not be met at right angles. In contrast, a round embouchure edge would always have some section that was being met at right angles. As the radius of the curve gets longer, so does the length of the splitting edge that is at the correct angle (assuming some degree of tolerance). In other words, you could argue, theoretically, that a rounded embouchure shape is more forgiving in terms of misalignment of blowing direction. I also suspect that the air leaving a player's lips does fan out before reaching the far side of the embouchure hole. Hence, it meets it at a range of angles. A round embouchure hole would have more sections being met at right angles than a straight edged one.

As for the second assertion, I personally find that cutaway sections after the splitting edge increase the air noise and breathiness when I play. My theoretical explanation for why that is the case is because the cutaway, flat, exterior causes more turbulence than the rounded exterior, in the same way as with the upper surface of an airplane wing is curved (convex) to cut down turbulence.

In practice, I think there are a lot of complex factors at work.