Hand-carved flute is not playing

[tomtom1]

Hi there!

I hope this is the right place to ask and that questions of this kind are allowed here!
Basically, I spent the past week making my own flute out of a branch of Elderberry. I have never played any instrument,
and know virtually nothing about music, so I set my goal really low: I want the instrument to produce a tone.
The flute type I settled for is a transverse / side-blown flute. This design seemed the simplest to me.
I split the branch, carved out the inside, and glued it back together.
The flute has the following dimensions:
Length: approx. 60cm
Bore diameter: 14-16mm (done by hand, so this will vary a bit)
Embouchure hole diameter: 10mm

The embouchure hole is round, not oval.
The other holes are drilled already, but still very small. I wanted to test their effect and enlarge them accordingly once I actually get a tone.

Now I have some trouble actually producing a tone. Of course it could be my technique, but I have been trying for quite some time,
using all kinds of angles and mouth shapes, and I start to believe that at some point it should at least accidentally have produced some sound if the flute was working.
So I am asking myself where the problem could be.
Some things that came to my mind:

1. How smooth and especially plain does the inside of the bore have to be? I smoothed it a bit using sand-paper, and I think its okay smoothness-wise, but overall, the surface is not very level.
2. Can it be that the embouchure hole is too deep? The walls of this particular branch are quite thick, and so the embouchure hole is about 15mm deep right now... It is hard finding information on the internet about this,
the only thing I noticed is that most flutes seem to have a less deep embouchure hole.
3. Is the flute too long?

I would appreciate any input.
Best,
Tom

[Sirchronique]

If you haven’t played flute before, it can be hard to even get a tone out of a well made flute initially. Not being able to play flute complicates the process of building one, because you won’t be able to make good adjustments. Plus, you won’t be able to know which errors are from the instrument and which are from your playing.

I hate to discourage anyone, but this might be an idea to return to after you’ve learned to at least get a decent tone out of a flute. It’s impractical before that.

[tomtom1]

Thanks for your reply.
Since I wrote my post, I actually managed to produce a tone. It is very "airy" though, by which I mean I hear the tone, but also a loud breathing sound.
I know that not knowing how to play the flute complicates things, that's why I set my goal very low. I don't plan to make any music on this, once it works in some way, I want to make it pretty,
and hang it somewhere. Of course it doesn't have to actually work for that, but it would feel better .

[Flutern]

It will take a very long time (months at best, years for some of us ) before your tone doesn't sound airy, and that's assuming you have a well made, properly functioning instrument. (One leaky pad or tenon, for example, can ruin everything.)

If your goal is to make sure the flute can produce a sound before hanging it on the wall, perhaps you've achieved it already

[an seanduine]

I suggest you look here: http://hammy-flutemaker.blogspot.com/20 ... chure.html
This is a discussion about the difficulties of making flute tone-holes (embouchures) well by a world re-nowned flute maker. There are several links and references in the posting as well.
One point he makes is the minimum size of a usable embouchure is 10 mm. These can be found with early-Baroque flutes. They can be very challenging for even experienced flute players.

Good luck on your journey,
Bob

[David Cooper]

I don't plan to make any music on this, once it works in some way, I want to make it pretty,
and hang it somewhere. Of course it doesn't have to actually work for that, but it would feel better .

That's a disappointing objective. People who can play the flute may ask to have a go on it, so you want it to be acceptably playable even if it isn't a great instrument. The density of that kind of wood isn't ideal, but it's worse when you use wood from a branch where the density can be a lot lower, so you could coat the bore with epoxy or yacht varnish to reflect sound waves instead of absorbing them. That will certainly make it more responsive and help the lower notes sound properly. The transformation is massive.

[Terry McGee]

Hi tomtom1

Of all the issues you wonder about, I'd focus on the embouchure depth. To put it in context, our Irish flutes tend to have a head outside diameter of around 27mm, and a head bore of around 19mm. Assuming the inside and outside are concentric (which doesn't have to be true!), that would give a wall thickness and therefore an embouchure depth of 27-19 = 8, 8/2 = 4mm. You mention yours if 15mm, but I'm not sure if you are defining it in the same way I am. But if so, that's far too much.

Typically we also see the embouchure hole as an oval, running about 12mm along the flute and 10.5mm across it. And it should meet the outside cleanly, leaving a crisp edge on the audience side. That's where the tricky magic happens.

Any chance of reworking the head end to get closer to those dimensions?

Given your length, a bore diameter more like 19mm for the top third of the flute, tapering down to about 12mm and flaring up to say 14mm for the last quarter would get you closer to our kind of instrument. If you could split the branch along the glue joint, you could do some whittling to approximate those dimensions. Or maybe easier to rip another branch of the tree?

Your elderwood is likely to be a bit porous too. You'll note a big improvement in responsiveness if you run some oil (eg Linseed) or varnish down the bore and swish it around. Two coats better than one.

And I'll echo David Cooper's response. Enough of this hanging on the wall caper. Flutes are made to be played! If you can get even a whisper of a note out of the current iteration, you're well on the way. Let me warn you, however, with over 50 years experience. Flute making is addictive! It may already be too late to back out now....

[tomtom1]

It will take a very long time (months at best, years for some of us ) before your tone doesn't sound airy, and that's assuming you have a well made, properly functioning instrument. (One leaky pad or tenon, for example, can ruin everything.)

If your goal is to make sure the flute can produce a sound before hanging it on the wall, perhaps you've achieved it already

Okay, that's discouraging but at the same time also a bit encouraging for me . And you are right, it already produces a tone, so if all else fails, I can at least call it a flute (the worst flute in the world though).

I suggest you look here: http://hammy-flutemaker.blogspot.com/20 ... chure.html
This is a discussion about the difficulties of making flute tone-holes (embouchures) well by a world re-nowned flute maker. There are several links and references in the posting as well.
One point he makes is the minimum size of a usable embouchure is 10 mm. These can be found with early-Baroque flutes. They can be very challenging for even experienced flute players.

Thanks, that is an interesting and terrifying read at the same time. I quote: "All this might lead one to wonder how on earth anyone can actually cut an embouchure".
So what I take away from this is that I could carefully try enlarging the hole. Maybe I move to a more oval shape too. I have now very often read (and the article you posted states the same) that all shapes work,
but many flutes seem to have settled for the oval shape. This video shows someone also struggling with a round hole and getting improvement when moving to oval.
Also I didn't realise that the embouchure hole gets bigger when it approaches the bore. I just drilled a straight cylinder.

That's a disappointing objective. People who can play the flute may ask to have a go on it, so you want it to be acceptably playable even if it isn't a great instrument. The density of that kind of wood isn't ideal, but it's worse when you use wood from a branch where the density can be a lot lower, so you could coat the bore with epoxy or yacht varnish to reflect sound waves instead of absorbing them. That will certainly make it more responsive and help the lower notes sound properly. The transformation is massive.

Thanks. I didn't know Elderberry was that unsuited. In fact I thought it was rather well-suited, because some tutorials on carving a flute used it. I guess it was just about the soft inner tube, so you could get a bore more easily.
Do you think regular wood stain or wood varnish would also work? I saw some people charring the insides of their holes, could that technique be used to seal the bore inside too?
And yes, you are completely right, it would be super nice if it was playable to some extent. Who knows, maybe the feeling of playing my self-made instrument might even be enough to get me into music!? .

Of all the issues you wonder about, I'd focus on the embouchure depth. To put it in context, our Irish flutes tend to have a head outside diameter of around 27mm, and a head bore of around 19mm. Assuming the inside and outside are concentric (which doesn't have to be true!), that would give a wall thickness and therefore an embouchure depth of 27-19 = 8, 8/2 = 4mm. You mention yours if 15mm, but I'm not sure if you are defining it in the same way I am. But if so, that's far too much.

Typically we also see the embouchure hole as an oval, running about 12mm along the flute and 10.5mm across it. And it should meet the outside cleanly, leaving a crisp edge on the audience side. That's where the tricky magic happens.

Any chance of reworking the head end to get closer to those dimensions?

Given your length, a bore diameter more like 19mm for the top third of the flute, tapering down to about 12mm and flaring up to say 14mm for the last quarter would get you closer to our kind of instrument. If you could split the branch along the glue joint, you could do some whittling to approximate those dimensions. Or maybe easier to rip another branch of the tree?

Thanks for the answer. So I guess I can add reducing the wall thickness (and by that the embouchure hole depth) to my list of todos! And yes, it really is 15mm right now. I guess I can just carve away on the outside of the flute until I reach that thickness.
About changing the bore diameter depending on the location, I didn't know that you could do that, that's interesting. I might try that when I open the flute to seal the inside walls.

Thank you all for the helpful comments! So my take-aways are:

- I will try to seal the inside of the flute to improve the sound behaviour
- I will reduce the wall thickness and by that the embouchure hole depth
- I will carefully enlarge the hole and move to a more oval shape
- Maybe I will widening the hole as it approaches the inside

[Terry McGee]

Good stuff, tomtom1

Your do-list mentions:
- I will try to seal the inside of the flute to improve the sound behaviour
Do this last, after all the other works.

- I will reduce the wall thickness and by that the embouchure hole depth
And that should extend down the flute. Otherwise all the finger holes (when you get that far) will be deep cylinders that will mute the response of those notes.

- I will carefully enlarge the hole and move to a more oval shape
But don't go beyond about 12 wide and 10.5 across. Too large a hole is too hard to control.

- Maybe I will widening the hole as it approaches the inside
Yes. We call this undercutting. Don't undercut the "far edge" too much, it can weaken response. You can undercut the side under your lip more, and the sides a little. Important on the far edge (the one you are aiming the jet at) that the face of the chimney remains straight. It certainly shouldn't bulge inwards - this can really confuse the jet-switching action. That's the source of the magic with flutes and we rely on it. So, concentrate on straight strokes, not rounded strokes.

[David Cooper]

Thanks. I didn't know Elderberry was that unsuited. In fact I thought it was rather well-suited, because some tutorials on carving a flute used it. I guess it was just about the soft inner tube, so you could get a bore more easily.
Do you think regular wood stain or wood varnish would also work? I saw some people charring the insides of their holes, could that technique be used to seal the bore inside too?
And yes, you are completely right, it would be super nice if it was playable to some extent. Who knows, maybe the feeling of playing my self-made instrument might even be enough to get me into music!? .

Elderberry likely works fine for flutes if you use oil on it to increase the density of the wood down the bore. Without that oil (or varnish or epoxy), little pockets of air in it will absorb sound energy, turning your notes into hiss. The wood in a branch can be less dense, making it sap more energy from the sound waves, but the cure is the same: oil, varnish or epoxy. It isn't about sealing the wood so much as creating a more dense or rigid surface to bounce the sound waves with lower energy losses. Sealing the wood to stop it rotting is another important purpose of the oil/varnish/epoxy if the flute is to be played. Ordinary varnish will likely do the job well enough. I use yacht varnish because it's better at protecting the wood from damp, and it might soak into the wood a bit better than epoxy. I then use epoxy on top of that for the surface the air actually hits, and there are safe types of epoxy that are particularly good for this as they're designed for indoor craft use, so they don't fill the air with toxic fumes and they're also food-safe. I use a brand called Craft Resin https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07PN68WXY/ ... 9kZXRhaWwy, and it's useful for fixing all sorts of broken things around the house too, but unfortunately they've stopped doing the 1/2 litre kit, so it's expensive for the tiny amount you'd need. However, other brands are likely selling the exact same stuff, so you can get 1/2 a litre for under £20: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BTGXLKKF/ ... F9kZXRhaWw - I'm fairly sure that all the ones with the same cure time and 1:1 mixing are sourced from the same Chinese company.