What is an Irish Flute (4) - Hold/Grip and Keys

[RPereira]

(in the questions that follow, I am referring to fully chromatic flutes)

1. Should I or shouldn't I use the pinky finger in stabilizing/holding the Irish flute?

2. I also read very briefly about the Rockstro grip and got a bit confused.
Is this grip still in use? What are its advantages and disadvantages?

3. When playing the notes in an Irish flute, why we do not always move up the fingers to produce the higher notes along the scale up?

[tstermitz]

(1) I use the right pinky to a certain degree for stabilization, but the E1 and E2 on my flute sound better using the Eb key, so I took the time to learn how to use it. It's a little awkward at first, like many things in life, but then you get used to it. Again, I think a majority of ITM players turn the foot joint away and do not use Eb.

(2) I highly recommend the Rocsktro or three-point hold as it stabilizes the flute and frees up your fingers, in particular, the left thumb and right pinky. You need to do something like that in order to play Bb. Yep, a little awkward at first, but this is highly recommended by many who play 8-key flutes.

(3) No Idea.

[Terry McGee]

Hi RPereira. I'd say if you want full use of the keys, you do really need to take up the three-point hold. In particular to be able to make unrestricted use of the thumb Bb key and the Right Pinky Eb key.

It was the way to hold these flutes back in the period where they were used. And it's not hard to conquer.

I do try to avoid and discourage the use of the term Rockstro Grip in this. It makes it sound like Rockstro invented it, when really his was the last generation to still use it. And the word "grip" makes it sound like you are squeezing the flute, whereas the beauty of the three-point hold (when you get it right!) is that you can really relax. This benefits all your fingers, not just the key fingers.

Can I direct you to my article on getting the hard-dark tone. Firstly because it talks about the difference between the modern approach to the flute and the 19th century approach, which is pretty much the approach used by Irish Flute players. But secondly, you'll find links to a number of 19th century instructions on how to hold the flute and how to get the best tone from it.

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Getting_the ... k_tone.htm

[john]

Are there illustrations or photographs online that show how the rockstro grip is achieved?

[Terry McGee]

You mean the Three-point Hold? Rockstro was one of the last to recommend it, so we shouldn't call it after him. Or, employing the same logic, we should now call it after me, since I recommend it, and I am even laster!

Not aware of any still images, but Jem-the-flute shows how to do it on various styles of flute at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lssGAtV ... emtheflute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzzXNTX ... emtheflute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GruFY6U ... emtheflute

I second Jem's advice that you need to turn the body out. A good test is to play something with c# notes such as the Black Rogue. With your left thumb dangling. You have the degree of turnout right when the flute doesn't fall to the ground! Be prepared to turn it out rather a long way!

The name R.S Rockstro is also associated with the breeding of English Bulldogs (1864). I now have this mental image of a bulldog trying to play the flute....

[john]

I'm struggling to follow this. To avoid what I think he calls the left hand death grip does that mean you no longer cover the holes with your finger tips, and use something closer to piper's grip?

[Terry McGee]

No, use the fingertips as usual. The big difference is that instead of having your right thumb UNDER the flute, you have the tip of it pointing INTO the flute. Sounds dodgy, I know, but try it. Flute to lip, bottom of left hand first finger pressing inwards, now move your right thumb so it's straight and the tip is pressing into the side of the flute. Don't try playing the flute or fingering the holes at first, just get comfortable with the notion that the three-point hold will keep the flute in place. Resist any urge to press hard! Now, wave all your fingers and left thumb around, to prove you weren't sneakily relying on one or more for additional support.

Now try blowing and adding fingers. Expect to come unstuck until you find the right degree of turnout of the body compared to the head! I find I need to set the embouchure hole to be about 60º, in line with my c-key (which I know seems extraordinary!) Other people don't seem to need this degree, so I reckon I must be a bit weird. (We'd guessed that anyway, hadn't we.) But just be aware that that even this degree of turnout is valid.

I find I need to have my left arm down really low, elbow pressed into body. The fingerholes are not on top of the flute, they are leaning out about 40 degrees or so. My right arm is higher than normal. I no longer aim to have the flute horizontal, but leaning down maybe 30º. I have some arthritis in the hands making stretch harder, so this helps reducing strain in the left hand. And with the right thumb stretched out straight and pointing into the flute rather than positioned under it, my right hand fingers are straighter than with the usual hold, reducing strain and increasing freedom there.

You'll know if you need to turnout the body more or less as the flute will try to rotate if not. If it rotates towards you, turn out more and try again. You don't seem to get as clear a signal if you have it rotated too far outwards. It just becomes hard to hold and blow well. So probably best approached from having only a little turnout. The classic advice seems to be that the far edge of the embouchure hole should line up with the centre of the finger holes. That's not enough for me, but try it! If it wants to fall towards you, increase the turnout. When you get it right, suddenly you can feel the freedom to hold the flute lightly and move any of your fingers easily.

Hope that helps. And of course we might find that others approach it differently. Please feel free to jump in!

Just for fun, here's an image of a Cornelius Ward flute where he's gone overboard to assist the player with the three-point hold. Just poke the tip of your right thumb into the target!



(The touch you can see to the left of the target is for the c-key.)

[Conical bore]

I use the three point hold Terry describes above and it works for me.

To set the amount of body rotation to the headjoint when I first pick up the flute, I sight down the full length of the flute from tbe bottom end, looking down the row of toneholes. I rotate the headjoint until the outer side of the embouchure hole matches the inward side of the tone holes. That gives me the most comfortable wrist angle and a good right hand thumb push against the flute.

The three point hold also works fine on my Lehart low Bb flute with six keys, even though it's considerably larger and heavier, and with a wider finger spread than my D flute. It's still easy to work the equivalent of the Bb and Eb keys (F# and B on this flute).

[RPereira]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, knowledge and useful links regarding my questions, very much appreciated!

[cassidybole]

Whether or not you should use your pinky finger to stabilize/hold the Irish flute is a matter of personal preference and playing style. Some players find that using their pinky finger helps them to keep the flute in place and to play more smoothly. Others find that using their pinky finger restricts their movement and makes it difficult to play certain notes.


Yes, the Rockstro grip is still in use by some flute players. This grip is said to be more comfortable and to allow for better airflow, which can lead to a better sound.

Similar issue was faced by me when I was practicing on my McNeela African Blackwood Flute and I researched about it and asked the fellow flutists and came to know that it is because The holes are not evenly spaced, The flute is not perfectly in tune, It can be difficult to reach the higher notes.

[RPereira]

In order to avoid bad habits and correctly learn the Rockstro grip, do I need to learn it with a keyed flute? Or is it possible to lean it in keyless flute?
Do the fingers go to the same places in either keyed or keyless flute?

[Terry McGee]

It's not the "Rockstro Grip". It's how all keyed flutes were played in at least England in the 18th and 19th centuries. Rockstro was one of the last to use it, and you'll see if you read his book, he assembles a great long list of famous players and teachers who are on record as having advocated it. He makes no claim for it himself. Calling it the Rockstro Grip is modern ignorance of the history. Rockstro didn't invent it, he just thought it had merit even after the invention of the Boehm flute.

Heh heh, and we should remember his name wasn't even Rockstro. He was born Rackstraw, but that was a bit too country-sounding for an upward-socially-mobile chap like him. So he and his brother adopted the more Italian-sounding ending Rockstro. Just like his friend Richard Cart added a terminal e to become Carte. And christened one of his sons D'Oyly. D'Oyly later became an Impressario. What else are you going to become with a name like D'Oyly Carte?

Yes, easy to try out the three-point hold on a keyless flute. I prefer to leave the 6 body holes all lined up, but turn the head in dramatically towards me. I'm about 60º in - so the far edge of the hole is in line with the near edge of the finger holes. Hold the flute with the embouchure hole where it bests suits you, which will mean that the finger holes are not pointing up, but pointing away from you. Have the right thumb tip poking in towards the middle of the flute. Press the left elbow into the body, the left arm should hang from the flute, not stick out in any way. The flute is held at three points, under the lip, pushed in by sitting high on the left hand first finger (close to where it joins the hand), and pushed out by the right thumb tip. You should be able to hold it there by just those three points. This leaves all the other fingers free to operate keys, and leaves the right hand fingers straighter, giving them more freedom to move.

A good test is to hold it like that while fingering D, then removing all the fingers to play c#. If the flute lurches towards you, turn the body out some more.

And remember, this hold is traditionally paired with the "blowing down towards the centre of the flute" embouchure approach.

That's my approach, some (eg Mr Nicholson) preferred to turn his right-hand section out dramatically (about 45º). It does have some attractions, but I find the right shoulder has to be a bit unnaturally high. We probably have to accept that there is no "right" way, as we all differ a bit in physiology. Your challenge is to find the "right" way for you. When you get there, you find the flute sits really securely, and your hands are much more relaxed.

[RPereira]

I'm sorry Terry, I was so used to the Rockstro name that I just mistakenly used it instead of the saying three-point hold... and you clearly explained it a few post above already…!

So, with the three-point hold, will my hands and fingers go instinctively into their correct positions independently of picking up a keyless or fully keyed flute? Or should I start right away with a fully keyed flute?

I’m worried that if I start with a keyless flute that I will need to re-learn and readjust my hands and fingers when I start picking up a fully keyed flute.

[Cyberknight]

In order to avoid bad habits and correctly learn the Rockstro grip, do I need to learn it with a keyed flute? Or is it possible to lean it in keyless flute?
Do the fingers go to the same places in either keyed or keyless flute?

There's certainly no reason you can't learn Rockstro grip on a keyless flute. The presence or absence of keys doesn't really affect that at all. Starting on a keyed flute is useful for getting your fingers used to being in the right position to access the keys, but I can't think of any reason it why you couldn't learn Rockstro grip on a keyless flute.

Keep in mind that Rockstro is just one method of holding the flute. Not everyone prefers it; I certainly don't. Its main (arguable) benefit is that it supposedly makes it slightly easier to use the D sharp key without losing grip on the flute. Many people, including me, think this benefit - to the extent it exists - isn't worth it, because the Rockstro grip doesn't seem to hold the flute as steady as other grips do.

And it certainly isn't necessary to use the Rockstro grip to access all the keys on the flute. I've seen many absolutely amazing flute players, including professionals, who do not use Rockstro grip and still play extremely well on fully keyed flutes. So don't think that you *have* to use this grip, nor that using a keyed flute will force you to use it. It's just one particular historical grip that some excellent players really like, while others do not.

[Cyberknight]

As a side note, I've never liked the term "3-point hold." This implies that alternative holds do not rely on "3 points" of contact, but nearly all of them do.

The main alternative to the Rockstro grip is to use your right pinky as the third anchor point instead of your right thumb, as Grey Larsen advocates. If you do this, your grip is just as much of a "3-point hold" as the Rockstro grip is (the only time you don't have 3 points of contact is when your pinky is lifted to play a D sharp).

So, what's so wrong with calling it the Rockstro grip? Rockstro may not have invented it, but he is an oft-cited advocate for that grip, so calling it "Rockstro grip" is good enough for me.