What is an Irish Flute (3) - Irish Flute vs Boehm Flute - Timbre & Tone

[RPereira]

(in the questions that follow, I am referring to fully chromatic flutes)

1. Can we reproduce the timbre/tone/colour complexity that we associate with the Irish flute in a Boehm flute?
In other words, is it a matter of changing the embouchure to get the Irish 'accent' in the Boehm flute or the timbre/tone comes from the geometrical differences between the two flutes?

2. How different must be your embouchure in order to play the Irish flute and the Boehm flute?

3. Does the Irish flute always produce a richer/complex/darker tone in the low notes than the Boehm flute?

[tstermitz]

(1) Maybe, but I don't know for sure. Some Boehm flute players purchase a wooden head joint to pursue a different tone or sound. The modern tradition and culture for playing concert Boehm flutes prefers pure and clear notes. There is a tradition in ITM and 19th C Britain for darker tones, and in ITM for a buzzy, reedy tone. This may be partly a result of the wooden flute or or made easier by the flute or the ITM flute embouchure, but is certainly due to musical goals, desire and training.

On my #4xxx series R&R, I can get a very nice dark tone with a little amount of buzz, but not near as much as some musicians - O'Grada for example. My tone is so much darker than the boehm style of playing, that it is often remarked on by people in the audience who have played flute. I might be able to work up to and play with more "buzz", but I think some flutes evoke that tone easier than others - Pratten flutes, maybe?

(2) Can't help you. I'm sure there is endless commentary on Boehm flute forums about embouchure cut, and likewise on Irish flutes both modern and antique.

(3) Not sure what "richer tone" means. I know what "I" mean by darker or more pure or reedy. But that is self referential, and a result of working pretty much only in the ITM tradition.

[cac]

(1) It is possible to get a sound like that of a simple-system, conical-bore wooden flute on a Boehm flute, but not many players do (and those that don't may prefer not to). I can only think of Joanie Madden and Steph Geremia on silver flutes and the young Tara Breen on a cylindrical bore wooden flute who succeed. The others sound tubby to me. I think the conical bore may have something to do with it, the shape of the embouchure hole (elliptical vs rectangular) also. I doubt that the material has anything to do with it although the silver flute is certainly easier to play with the relaxed embouchure which is currently in vogue in the classical music world. A large part is probably the tightness of the embouchure, although there are a few trad players who play with the relaxed embouchure associated with the silver flute even though they play with conical-bore wooden flutes (Tom Doorley, Seamus Egan?). Steph Geremia has a lesson on playing trad on the silver flute which you should view and listen to.
(2) Answered in (1) above. It can be the same or it can be different. Most typically different.
(3) I think so. The silver flute, played with a relaxed embouchure, can have a loud, brassy sound in the lowest register but is not typically as complex/dark/rich as the wooden, conical-bored flute played with a typical trad embouchure (i.e. a tighter one).
Your questions are good ones, but difficult to answer. Until you get a wooden or delrin conical-bored flute, I wouldn't hesitate to work on Irish music with a silver, cylindrical bore flute but I would recommend switching to wood or delrin and the conical-bore after a while. FWIW, I personally don't like play Irish ornaments on the silver flute with Boehm keywork, and I like the feel of my six finger pad in direct contact with the tone holes. Chet

[cac]

Here is the link to Tara Breen: https://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comha ... _on_flute/
And here is the link to Steph Geremia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ6BGz1-UT4&t=192s

[RPereira]

Once again, thanks so much for all the clarifications regarding my questions, very much appreciated indeed!

[Steampacket]

Lucie Périer gets a fine "Irish" sound out of her metal flute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW5g0E3siTE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMI7BmIVuA

[Cyberknight]

Lucie Périer gets a fine "Irish" sound out of her metal flute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW5g0E3siTE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMI7BmIVuA

Man...this is so good it makes me wonder why I bothered getting an Irish flute instead of a Boehm.

[cac]

Sorry!! I forgot about Lucie, whose playing I really enjoy. It is interesting that all three of them (Joanie, Steph and Lucie) play Miyazawa flutes. Chet

[Mr.Gumby]

The late Paddy O'Donoghue was always handy enough on the Böhm. Great memories of his duets with Vincent Griffin, among other things/occasions, like his playing with Pat Mullins, Seamus Bugler and Pat Costello.

Ann McAuliffe plays a wooden Böhm, can't fault her music.
See here, with Billy Clifford(also playing a wooden Böhm) and Nicky McAuliffe

It may be worth bringing up older Böhm/Boehm threads, there a bit of a hint of deja vu here.

[Steampacket]

The late Paddy O'Donoghue was always handy enough on the Böhm. Great memories of his duets with Vincent Griffin, among other things/occasions, like his playing with Pat Mullins, Seamus Bugler and Pat Costello. Ann McAuliffe plays a wooden Böhm, can't fault her music. See here, with Billy Clifford(also playing a wooden Böhm) and Nicky McAuliffe. Mr. Gumby

Nice!. Saw the Tara Breen on flute video clip a few weeks ago. She's brilliant fiddler and flute player, and plays also the saxophone too. I bet she plays the pipes too?

Here's Paddy Carty on his Boehm flute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR-Pygcqo8Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0Ro1INYLXQ

[tstermitz]

Wow, I just listened to the Tara Breen recordings. Very nice reedy-tone.

Given that most boehm flute players seek a clear, pure tone, I did not realize what she does is possible.

It could be that a wooden flute has a darker tone than she uses. And it raises the question about differences in embouchure cuts, flute designs (pratten vs rudall), and what a wooden head joint would do on a boehm flute. Even between my small, medium & large rudalls, some flutes seem to prefer a pure tone, others lend themselves to darker.

[Sirchronique]

There’s some difference in sound, but the vast majority of the sound is coming from the player. A silver Böhm flute can be played reedy and complex, and a conical wooden simple system flute can be played with a pure and open tone.

A lot of the differences people note between the two come down to the player, the tone they are going for, and the music they play. I’ve heard classical players play conical simple system flutes with a tone very close to what you’d hear them frequently use when they play on their Böhm flute. Likewise, I’ve heard ITM players get a buzzy reedy tone on a silver Böhm flute.

I’m not saying that each doesn’t have its own tonal attributes, because they most certainly do. However, differences come down to the player more than they do to any other factor. People have a tendency, however, to attribute stylistic differences to the instrument itself on matters that are determined by the player.

[cassidybole]

An Irish flute is a traditional wooden flute that is commonly used in Irish traditional music. It is a simple system flute, meaning it has six finger holes and no keys or mechanical mechanisms. The Irish flute is typically made of wood, such as African blackwood or rosewood, and it has a conical bore.

In contrast, the Boehm flute, also known as the Western concert flute, is a silver or nickel-plated flute with a cylindrical bore. It was developed by Theobald Boehm in the 19th century and is the standard flute used in Western classical music. The Boehm flute has a complex key system consisting of keys, levers, and rods that allows for a wider range of notes and greater technical versatility.

One of the main differences between the Irish flute and the Boehm flute is the timbre and tone produced. The Irish flute has a warm and mellow tone with a slightly breathy quality. It is known for its rich and expressive sound that is well-suited for traditional Irish music. The wooden construction of the Irish flute contributes to its unique timbre and tone.

On the other hand, the Boehm flute has a brighter and more focused tone. Its sound is often described as clear, brilliant, and projecting. The metal construction and cylindrical bore of the Boehm flute give it a distinct sound that is suitable for a wide range of musical genres, including classical, jazz, and contemporary music.

Both flutes have their own unique characteristics and are used in different musical contexts. The Irish flute is deeply rooted in Irish traditional music, while the Boehm flute is widely used in various musical genres around the world. The choice between the two depends on personal preference, musical style, and the specific requirements of the music being played.

I've also compared both of them side by side on McNeela Music......

[chrismontez]

I play a couple of metal Bohm flutes with the original metal heads and a couple of modern wooden headjoints I have. For the last 7 years or so I have mainly played a wooden Haynes from 1919 pitched at 435 hz with the original headjoint and pitched at 440 if I put one of the modern wooden headjoints on it as the center of the embouchure on a modern headjoint is about 5 mm closer to the flute body. I also play a couple of simple system conical flutes. The Haynes with the original head pitched at 435 HZ and the inexpensive pakistani simple system sound noticeable different from the other flutes. But all the other configurations of bodies and headjoints, and the high end simple system flute with a metal lined headjoint, sound very similar and I can't tell the difference when I compare recordings I make. I think my tone is my tone and goes with me from instrument to instrument. Maybe I could work on sounding reedier on the different instruments, but just playing naturally I don't sound much different on the flutes.