Anyone tried the Carbony D flute with the chimneys and close fingering?

[LimuHead]

When I did a search everything that came up was several years old, so I'm asking the question again to see if anyone has any updated information.

I've been a Boehm player for many years (40+) and a keyless player for several years now.

The biggest problem I have is with the finger spread on the keyless flute. The middle and ring finger on both of my hands are very double-jointed and the right hand ring finger won't stay arched when I play a "normal" keyless flute in D. The joint goes into double-jointed position and limits my dexterity and sometimes causes pain. I've been working for weeks trying to find a right-hand hold that would keep that from happening and have had some success but still can't play for very long.

I have a Casey Burns small hands flute that I can play without too much trouble, but would like to try other options. Thus, my current inquiry.

Can you get a big sound on the Carbony?

Are the 3rd octave notes there?

Is it possible to get a fat low D note?

Please let me know if you have tried the Carbony with close finger spacing and what your impessions were.

Also, if you have any advise for dealing with a right-hand double-jointed ring finger while playing keyless flute, I'd love to hear it.

Thank you!
Aldon

[paddler]

I don't have any experience with Carbony flutes, but if you want a big sound and close finger spacing, you could also look into a flute with a Siccama-style key for the right hand ring finger. I don't like the feeling of them myself, but they do make a big difference to the right hand ring finger position and if you have a problem with that finger (or the left hand ring finger, for that matter), they might be worth a look. I'm not sure which modern makers offer this feature, but Terry McGee has some information about the original Siccama flutes on his site.

[kkrell]

Have you tried hyperextension ring/splints ?

https://www.google.com/search?q=hyperex ... g%2Fsplint

https://www.ehlers-danlos.com/community ... disorders/

Oh, and I've played a Carbony flute, but not the one with the chimneys. I found the flute heavy (unlike their whistles which are very lightweight), and an OK, so-so player, not any great improvement over a Casey Burns flute. You might consider a wood (or Delrin) flute from Dave Copley, who can generally accommodate you with a small hands flute. although I don't know if that will necessarily benefit your double-jointed fingers. Thumb placement & physical therapy (strengthening fingers) seems to help most musicians, while many do wear the splints.

[pancelticpiper]

The joint goes into double-jointed position and limits my dexterity and sometimes causes pain. I've been working for weeks trying to find a right-hand hold that would keep that from happening and have had some success but still can't play for very long.

Yes I have something much like that, which combined with wrist and shoulder pain caused me to give up flute.

Luckily vertically held things like whistles and bagpipes are completely comfortable.

Can you get a big sound on the Carbony?

Are the 3rd octave notes there?

Is it possible to get a fat low D note?

I've not played the close-finger spacing model but I've blown a large number of Carbony flutes in various keys at their booths at several festivals I've attended over the years.

IMHO they're not serious musical instruments. The flutes that I tried, dozens of them in all the various keys they had displayed, played about as well as the homemade ones people make out of white PVC pipe. This being the case I can only assume that putting the holes closer together and having chimneys will make the tone even less powerful.

The things I tried, their uilleann pipes, Highland pipes, Spanish Gaita, or whistles, didn't come anywhere near the performance expected from legit instruments of those genres. The sole exception was their Scottish Smallpipes, which were decent.

With the caveat that makers can and oftentimes do change their designs over time, it seems to me that Carbony has been dabbling with a large number of unrelated instruments and hasn't put in the enormous amount of focused R&D that making a high-quality instrument of any sort requires.

Who did put in a vast amount of R&D time on the flute was Theobald Boehm, and if you can play a Boehm flute comfortably why not use it for Irish music? Few of the things that make Boehm fluteplaying sound different from Irish fluteplaying come from the instrument.

[Steve Bliven]

I haven't played one to any extent but word is that his flutes have evolved over the years (e.g., the chimney version) but I've still heard mixed reviews. Sean Gavin seems enamored of the F version he plays. Listen here for an example.

Best wishes.

Steve

[LimuHead]

Thank you all for the feedback.

The hyperextension ring/splints seem like a doable and affordable option that I'll be looking further into. Thanks Kkrell for the tip!

I like the idea of the Siccama flute, but would probably end up going with the Boehm for ITM (like Pancelticpiper suggested) if it came to that. I'm well aware of Joannie Madden's masterful playing on a Boehm.

Thanks again for the help & suggestions.
Aldon

[pancelticpiper]

Yes the Siccama, which I had the loan of a fine original for a week to try, has covered/plateau keys on the two open holes which are the most distant from their acoustically correct position, Hole 3 and Hole 6 (the holes from which the notes A and E emit).

This allows these holes to be moved down the tube, and made larger, making for a bigger and more even tone overall, yet having touches which put the ring fingers of both hands in comfortable positions.

But why not cover all the holes, allowing all the holes to be bigger than fingers could seal? That's the advantage of the Boehm.

[Tjones]

I've not played the close-finger spacing model but I've blown a large number of Carbony flutes in various keys at their booths at several festivals I've attended over the years.

IMHO they're not serious musical instruments. The flutes that I tried, dozens of them in all the various keys they had displayed, played about as well as the homemade ones people make out of white PVC pipe. This being the case I can only assume that putting the holes closer together and having chimneys will make the tone even less powerful.

The things I tried, their uilleann pipes, Highland pipes, Spanish Gaita, or whistles, didn't come anywhere near the performance expected from legit instruments of those genres. The sole exception was their Scottish Smallpipes, which were decent.

With the caveat that makers can and oftentimes do change their designs over time, it seems to me that Carbony has been dabbling with a large number of unrelated instruments and hasn't put in the enormous amount of focused R&D that making a high-quality instrument of any sort requires.

Who did put in a vast amount of R&D time on the flute was Theobald Boehm, and if you can play a Boehm flute comfortably why not use it for Irish music? Few of the things that make Boehm fluteplaying sound different from Irish fluteplaying come from the instrument.

Usually I don’t often respond, but I feel a need to in this case.

Panceltpiper usually has thoughtful and well thought out responses to most discussions, but when it comes Carbony instruments, he’s shown to me, a very strong bias against them and doesn’t hesitate to write negative reviews that are pretty hurtful, based on his trying them at festivals.

I’ve had two instruments from Carbony, a flute and an Uilleann chanter, both are okay instruments, in my opinion. The flute I had owned for some years, and I’d say it was very comparable to my delrin Cochran flute. I would use one or the other when I was camping. I do prefer to play my Burns 6 key or my antique Blackman as my main flutes. I did find that I preferred the Carbony over a Ward flute that I owned for serval months.

I had an opportunity to do a workshop last summer with a very well know piper. I was able to trade the flute for the Uilleann chanter. I had written in another thread on a piping forum, that I had gotten an Uilleann chanter from Carbony and that three pipers had been pleasantly surprised when they had tried the chanter. Richard wrote and challenged what I was said, questioning if these were experienced pipers, and stated that from trying one chanter at a festival, that the Carbony chanter was “unacceptable”. The three pleasantly surprised pipers included Mick O’Brien.

I would tend to agree with KKrell that the Carbony was “an OK, so-so player” and it was a bit heavy. At the time I bought the Carbony flute, Rob the owner of Carbony, told me that he used the Pratten model bore design, purchased from Terry Mc Gee, to develop his flute. This was not the one with chimney extenders. As I understand it, the carbon fiber is denser than delrin and this may account for the flute be a bit heavier.

I believe trying instruments at a booth at a festival with all the noise and distraction can give one a first impression, but until I spent time with the instrument I’d be more reserved with my judgement. On the Ward flute, the first time I tried it, I was very impressed. When it became available a few years later I bought it. After a few months, I decided that the flute wasn’t right for me and I sold it. My experience with a friends Owell didn’t leave me that impressed. First impressions can be misleading.

To generalize and call Carbony instruments “not serious musical instruments” is pretty damning, along with Richard’s other statements about their company and instruments, it leads me to believe he has some type of grudge with them.

[kkrell]

I would tend to agree with KKrell that the Carbony was “an OK, so-so player” and it was a bit heavy. At the time I bought the Carbony flute, Rob the owner of Carbony, told me that he used the Pratten model bore design, purchased from Terry Mc Gee, to develop his flute. This was not the one with chimney extenders. As I understand it, the carbon fiber is denser than delrin and this may account for the flute be a bit heavier.

I hope I got the quoting above right.

To clarify or extend my earlier post:

I had this flute for about a year, sold it to another C&Fer, who immediately sold it off again, so apparently not a fit for them, either. I would have taken it back, but it was already gone.

Carbony Celtic Winds carbon fiber conical D flute w/tuning slide. Standard tonehole spacing, in-line (split L/R). Uses O-rings at tenons.

Actually a decent flute, and played/responded well. I now think my "so-so" comment implies a more negative impression than I intended. The flute snapped together securely, and was easy to care for. However, I found the tone just a little dull - less special than other flutes that I prefer to keep. I did an A-B test against a number of other flutes I was considering selling. Turn offs, I guess, were the tone, the weight, the non-traditional appearance, and what I perceived as inadequate value for the price. Tied up too much money for the pleasure I could get out of it. A fine flute for many to progress on, but I think surpassed by other makers at more reasonable prices.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

The hyperextension ring/splints seem like a doable and affordable option that I'll be looking further into. Thanks Kkrell for the tip!

I have hyper-extending joints and I experimented with ring splints. I actually made my own experimentally, but they definitely work. They take seconds to put on or take off, and they make a big difference.

[LimuHead]

Well I found some plastics ring splints online and have them now.

They make a huge difference.

My ring finger no longer bends backward while playing, the flute is much more stable, and I can play longer!

I was originally only concerned with my right hand, but the splint worked so well that I added one to my left hand ring finger too and found it helps there as well!

Thanks for the recommendations!

My flauting may now recommence without pain and frequent breaks!

Aldon

[jim stone]

Perhaps another workable option is piper's grip.

[msupples]

It depends on your goals, but have you thought about a flute other than in D?

If you do well with a D flute made for small hands, then an Eb from any maker may work well for you.

You could also consider something like an ergonomic D model from Dave Copley with an additional Eb body.