Whistle and flute

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gbyrne
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Re: Whistle and flute

Post by gbyrne »

A majority of flute players came onboard via learning the whistle. Note fingerings, ornaments and the general phrasing/ breathing is similar.

However most of the sound/tone is “made for you” on the whistle in the fipple - it’s a fixed embouchure and blade to generate the standing wave.

On the wooden flute the focusing of the airflow is done by the player. And it takes time to master. Getting good at it is 3-5 years.

Being able to play the whistle is significantly advantageous to learning flute. But it’s no simple hop from one to the other.
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Re: Whistle and flute

Post by PlanxtyPipes »

I'm another that came to the flute through the whistle. I'm really glad I started on the whistle. Having a bunch of tunes under my belt and knowing how ornamentation worked was a huge help. I still like to learn tunes on the whistle a lot of times since it's easier to get the fingerings and melodies down without worry about embouchure...especially as my whistle is very easy blowing and requires hardly any air. This allows me to start piecing together the tune and how I want to attack breathing and articulation on flute.

As others have said embouchure is the real trick. It took me about a month or two to be able to consistently make a sound on the flute. Some days I would pick it up and I could barely get a note out. It took another couple of months to get to where I could consistently sound ALL of the notes. In there it was several months before I figured out how to focus embouchure enough that I wasn't having to breathe every 2 or 3 notes. Now that I've been playing 3 years or so I'm getting to where I can more reliably get a good tone, but it still slips now and then and I think the tone could be a bit better. But I'm really starting to be able to feel when it "locks in". All of the sudden it gets much easier to play and the sound darkens and fattens and I get excited. I may only be able to maintain it for a short while but it's so encouraging and makes all the practice worth it. I definitely have noticed I am MUCH better when I practice consistently. I've had things come up where I didn't play much flute for several months and it always is a battle to get the embouchure back to where it was so I can start progressing again.
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Tell us something.: Learning flute (started August 2022) and whistle (started in 2021). Focusing now on breathing and getting a decent tone from the flute. My short-term goal is to be able to play a set of jigs and set of reels in a rhythmically and musically OK way on flute by May 15, 2023. My medium term goal is to be good enough to start participating in the slow sessions in my town by July.

Re: Whistle and flute

Post by tommydee »

Hi all,

I hope it's OK to ask this question here as I think it relates to the content of the post and it is the closest thing I found in my search.

I am a new flute player (since September) who is also a 'beginner' (say two years regular playing) whistle player. I'm more experienced on other instruments and was a professional musician in my 20s so my ear isn't completely tin (though I'm quite pitch-y but that might be besides the point).

I'm loving flute, but have started going back to re-learn or clean up some old whistle repertoire and I was wondering if I could get some rules of thumb or general advice on articulation for playing my old whistle tunes on flute. Some things are obviously different and challenging (the breathing is different for me as my embouchure is still weak, for example, and obviously there is more to do on the flute with pulses and accents), but I'm wondering how to transfer the articulation. I'm looking for general rules so it won't get to confusing while I review and learn and relearn across instruments. I realize that as certain tunes become more special on either instrument I might need to deviate between versions a ton more. I'm not to the point yet where articulation and breathing are natural so I need to practice them and memorize for now.

What I have been doing is to replace places where I tongue (my main tutor books are Mary Bergin's so I have been following her tonguing advice) with a throat articulation or stop. Where she legatos, I legato. This seems to sound OK (sometimes I naturally will emphasize certain notes with airflow or modify here and there naturally). Is this an idiotic approach? Should I just leave the whistle alone for a year or two and then learn the tunes separately so they don't create a mush in my head? Should I stop worrying about it? You folks have disaster stories or advice?

Cheers,

Tommy
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Steve Bliven
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Re: Whistle and flute

Post by Steve Bliven »

tommydee wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:07 am
I'm loving flute, but have started going back to re-learn or clean up some old whistle repertoire and I was wondering if I could get some rules of thumb or general advice on articulation for playing my old whistle tunes on flute. Some things are obviously different and challenging (the breathing is different for me as my embouchure is still weak, for example, and obviously there is more to do on the flute with pulses and accents), but I'm wondering how to transfer the articulation. I'm looking for general rules so it won't get to confusing while I review and learn and relearn across instruments. I realize that as certain tunes become more special on either instrument I might need to deviate between versions a ton more. I'm not to the point yet where articulation and breathing are natural so I need to practice them and memorize for now.

What I have been doing is to replace places where I tongue (my main tutor books are Mary Bergin's so I have been following her tonguing advice) with a throat articulation or stop. Where she legatos, I legato. This seems to sound OK (sometimes I naturally will emphasize certain notes with airflow or modify here and there naturally). Is this an idiotic approach? Should I just leave the whistle alone for a year or two and then learn the tunes separately so they don't create a mush in my head? Should I stop worrying about it? You folks have disaster stories or advice?
Something I found quite helpful is Conal O'Grada's book "Irish Traditional Flute Technique" . He spends a lot of time on various articulation techniques and how they fit together in working out a tune. He discusses "critical listening" to the styles of various players to how how they apply these techniques so you're not just getting Conal's use of articulations. And there's an accompanying CD to audibly illustrate what he's writing about. [And no, I don't get a percentage of the sales :D ]

Best wishes

Steve
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PB+J
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Re: Whistle and flute

Post by PB+J »

Second the O Grada book!
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pancelticpiper
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Re: Whistle and flute

Post by pancelticpiper »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:20 pm
I appreciate the bit about bit about the struggles of starting on a lower end instrument. Confirms a decision I've already made to start with a decent one. I did the low-end start with a whistle "to see if I was going to stick with it before investing," and I was shocked at how much easier a good whistle is to play when I got one.
You have to be careful there with the assumptions. I think you will find a lot of experienced whistlers who will tell you the easiest, and often their preferred choice of instrument, will be the cheap whistle...

On the other hand a good few top range flutes require a very focused, strong embouchure, that is well beyond the reach of relative beginners, to play to their full potential.
First, I agree it's always a mistake for beginners to saddle themselves with both the task learning a new instrument and the task of trying to overcome the flaws of a poor instrument.

True that good players get the most out of any instrument, the poor and the good, and are capable of masking at least some of the flaws in a poor one. But they want their effort to bear maximum fruit and they themselves play good instruments.

Mr Gumby brings up two topics that fully agree with my experiences

1) the best-playing whistles tend to be among the least expensive. That's with high whistles. With Low Whistles my experience has been that to get a great-playing one you'll have to pay the price, unless you happen across a used one being sold below value.

2) some great fluteplayers play flutes that require a great embouchure. I experienced this when a fluteplayer with a very powerful tone let me borrow both his #1 and his #2 flutes for a couple days. (Both were mid-19th century Prattens.)

For me, lacking his embouchure, the #2 flute was a better player, really the best flute I've ever played. A huge fluid tone came out with little effort.

His #1 flute was much stiffer and required a very strong blow to "fill" it.

Matt Molloy, when he tried an Olwell flute (which deliver big tone and are easy to "fill") said something along the lines that the Olwell will be a great flute for him when he's no longer able to "fill" his vintage Pratten.
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gbyrne
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Re: Whistle and flute

Post by gbyrne »

Third recommendation Conal O Grada’s tutor. Challenging to find at the moment - out of print.

You’re right to remove tonguing and look to replace with glottal or finger articulations. But for now don’t overly worry about this. The basic principles of the key ornaments remains similar from whistle to flute (cuts, taps, long/short rolls and crans) and you’ll do them in the same places and for the same reasons.

Get a good teacher. With a little direction you’ll make excellent progress given your background.


tommydee wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:07 am Hi all,

I hope it's OK to ask this question here as I think it relates to the content of the post and it is the closest thing I found in my search.

I am a new flute player (since September) who is also a 'beginner' (say two years regular playing) whistle player. I'm more experienced on other instruments and was a professional musician in my 20s so my ear isn't completely tin (though I'm quite pitch-y but that might be besides the point).
tommydee
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Tell us something.: Learning flute (started August 2022) and whistle (started in 2021). Focusing now on breathing and getting a decent tone from the flute. My short-term goal is to be able to play a set of jigs and set of reels in a rhythmically and musically OK way on flute by May 15, 2023. My medium term goal is to be good enough to start participating in the slow sessions in my town by July.

Re: Whistle and flute

Post by tommydee »

Thanks Steve and gbyrne!

I have a copy of the O'Grada tutor and have coincidentally just started working through it (at chapter 2 now -- and boy do cuts suddenly become hard when you put them where it makes musical sense and not where they are finger-easy haha). It's been great so far. That first chapter on breathing coupled with the harmonics exercises someone posted on this site have improved my tone and how long a breath lasts considerably (though I'm still a beginner).

What I'll do as I re-learn and try to cross learn (learn the same tunes on both flute and whistle) is take my time and do some listening so I'm sure my method of replacing the tonging with the right breath accents / glottal stops is half-decent sounding and then try not to worry to much / get it fixed in in-person lessons. I was hoping to quickly add a bunch of whistle tunes I know to flute and vice versa but I think I have too many half-learned tunes at this point and maybe should slow down and just work on technique and only the tunes O'Grada provides as examples and maybe have one tune I'm cross-learning on the back burner at a time. It's hard not to get excited when you hear a fun new tune and want to try and learn it. So much beautiful music out there.

Cheers and thanks,

T
Last edited by tommydee on Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
tstermitz
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Re: Whistle and flute

Post by tstermitz »

@Tommy
I'm loving flute, but have started going back to re-learn or clean up some old whistle repertoire and I was wondering if I could get some rules of thumb or general advice on articulation for playing my old whistle tunes on flute.
Most everything you know from the whistle also works well on flute. Mary Bergin is a great model. I would say that she uses more tongue articulations than most whistle players, and that most flute players use less tonguing. Adding judicious tongue articulations is better than over-doing it. The flute benefits from much greater dynamic range, which you can only get on the whistle by using articulations.

I really love the phrasing of Catherine McEvoy. Her breath articulations are really wonderful and gives a lyrical relaxed feel to the tunes.
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About 1,5 years ago i took up the Low Whistle and really enjoy that as well.

Re: Whistle and flute

Post by The Danish Piper »

tstermitz wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:45 am
Most everything you know from the whistle also works well on flute. Mary Bergin is a great model. I would say that she uses more tongue articulations than most whistle players, and that most flute players use less tonguing. Adding judicious tongue articulations is better than over-doing it. The flute benefits from much greater dynamic range, which you can only get on the whistle by using articulations.

I really love the phrasing of Catherine McEvoy. Her breath articulations are really wonderful and gives a lyrical relaxed feel to the tunes.
Very nice to know.
I will take up the flute sometime in the future. I am relativly "young" on my whistle journey.
I think quite many players at some point can play both instruments?
I would seem quite logical since the fingering is much the same.
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Whistle and different sets of bagpipes.
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Conical bore
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Re: Whistle and flute

Post by Conical bore »

The Danish Piper wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 1:57 am I think quite many players at some point can play both instruments?
I would seem quite logical since the fingering is much the same.
I went directly to learning flute without being a whistle player first, but along the way I picked up a couple of whistles, a D and a C just for fun.

Yes the fingering is the same as flute so I can play the whistle, but I'm not a good whistle player. There are differences in technique between the two instruments like the degree of tonguing, use of glottal stops, etc. There is also a wider range of dynamic potential with flute, so the approach to breathing is a bit different. I haven't tried to improve my whistle technique to make it sound more "whistle authentic" because it would take practice time away from my flute, which is a harsh mistress and doesn't like me to be away from her for too long.

So I rarely play my whistles. Mostly just in the car while waiting in line for the ferry, and usually the C whistle because it has a mellower tone. As an aside, I also sometimes play a WARBL Midi instrument which can be fingered like a whistle. It's my "pretend I'm a piper" instrument for fun at home.
The Danish Piper
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About 1,5 years ago i took up the Low Whistle and really enjoy that as well.

Re: Whistle and flute

Post by The Danish Piper »

Conical bore wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 11:36 am
The Danish Piper wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 1:57 am I think quite many players at some point can play both instruments?
I would seem quite logical since the fingering is much the same.
Yes the fingering is the same as flute so I can play the whistle, but I'm not a good whistle player. There are differences in technique between the two instruments like the degree of tonguing, use of glottal stops, etc. There is also a wider range of dynamic potential with flute, so the approach to breathing is a bit different. I haven't tried to improve my whistle technique to make it sound more "whistle authentic" because it would take practice time away from my flute, which is a harsh mistress and doesn't like me to be away from her for too long.
Very nice in-put. Thank you.
That seems logical to me.
Even though fingering is the same, the playing style and instruments are actually quite far apart.
Now I see that I can actually relate this to a part of my own music...
I play the Highland Pipes and has also along the way, taken up medieval bagpipes.
Those instruments are somewhat similar (fingering is different), but the style of the music is much, much different. A whole other genre.

From what I read is, that the whistle/ flute thing is about the same, yet reversed from what I wrote about the "bagpipe-thing"
Here the fingering and tunes are the same. But the playing style (instrument is handled different) and technique is much different...

(I have taken up the whistle, almost 2 years ago and really enjoy the process of that instrument)

I hope this reply make sence :)
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tstermitz
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Re: Whistle and flute

Post by tstermitz »

As Conical Bore says, the whistle has less dynamic range. That means that you need other mechanisms (i.e. articulations) to express the dynamics.

I think of the whistle as a rhythmic instrument as much as a melodic one.

See for example Mary Bergen.
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Re: Whistle and flute

Post by fintano »

There is one advantage to the flute over the whistle. On the whistle, pitch varies with volume. The harder you blow, the sharper the pitch. So one of the skills of a whistle player is pitch control. The recorder is similar. That rather limits the dynamics of the instrument, but I wouldn't say it's a limitation, it's just a characteristic of the instrument. Listen to a really good recorder ensemble, and it sounds much like an organ.

On the flute, pitch and volume can be controlled independently of each other. The pessimist might say, that's two things you have to learn instead of one. But it opens up a wider range of expressive possibilities.

On the topic of whistles, I have a couple of "high end" whistles, which is what I usually choose when I'm playing whistle. But I still like the old Generation that was the first whistle I ever bought.
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