Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
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Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
Hi,
I am writing because I have in mind to order an 8-key D flute (not soon, maybe in some months) but nowadays it is not so common among flutemakers. In my case, because of the traditional music I play I will use the C# key a lot.
My idea is a wooden flute and keys in the 19th century style (for aesthetic taste) and to avoid a long waiting list or prices higher than about 3.000-3.500 euros.
The sound of the Steffen Gabriel flutes seemed very good in the videos (particularly the wide bore model), but I haven't found many references from players about what these flutes are like. Any comments on this? Any other recommendations: Geert Lejeune, ...?
Cheers,
Andrés
I am writing because I have in mind to order an 8-key D flute (not soon, maybe in some months) but nowadays it is not so common among flutemakers. In my case, because of the traditional music I play I will use the C# key a lot.
My idea is a wooden flute and keys in the 19th century style (for aesthetic taste) and to avoid a long waiting list or prices higher than about 3.000-3.500 euros.
The sound of the Steffen Gabriel flutes seemed very good in the videos (particularly the wide bore model), but I haven't found many references from players about what these flutes are like. Any comments on this? Any other recommendations: Geert Lejeune, ...?
Cheers,
Andrés
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
Hi Andrés,
take a look to DoneDeal, Brass and wind in Ireland.
There is a Rudall & Rose from 1827 .Think about this. I myself have a Rudall,Carte from about 1880, has been in DoneDeal too, 7 years ago : best flute ever. Occasionally there are refurbished old flutes , even here in the forum. Look for Jem Hammond ( unfortunately it's Brexit UK now ) or H. Hammilton aka Cornelius Ward,that's Ireland. They do great jobs on old flutes.
The odie- flutes can be top, and you avoid a long waiting time. And new 8-keyers are pretty expensive.
Steffen Gabriel is top too. I own a keyless : its a copy of my Rudall, Carte, I think: heads and bodies are interchangeable and play top. But the oldy is superior.
Keep well,
Herbert
take a look to DoneDeal, Brass and wind in Ireland.
There is a Rudall & Rose from 1827 .Think about this. I myself have a Rudall,Carte from about 1880, has been in DoneDeal too, 7 years ago : best flute ever. Occasionally there are refurbished old flutes , even here in the forum. Look for Jem Hammond ( unfortunately it's Brexit UK now ) or H. Hammilton aka Cornelius Ward,that's Ireland. They do great jobs on old flutes.
The odie- flutes can be top, and you avoid a long waiting time. And new 8-keyers are pretty expensive.
Steffen Gabriel is top too. I own a keyless : its a copy of my Rudall, Carte, I think: heads and bodies are interchangeable and play top. But the oldy is superior.
Keep well,
Herbert
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
A few modern makers are creating 8-key flutes, but 6-key flutes are more common. Wait times can be lengthy, and you will more sooner find a used one.
Then there is the price. Is anyone making an 8-key flute today for under $4,000? Adding C/C# foot keys is an expensive add-on.
For those reasons, I've sought out and played a number of 8-key 19th C antiques, both American and English. Good American flutes when renovated or in good shape can be found for $2,000 or so. English flutes, maybe in the same range unless they have the Rudall name on them in which case they'll be $3,000 or more. That is still MUCH less than a modern flute. You need to determine whether the flute plays reasonably at A440, if that's a requirement.
Are you seeking a loud, session flute, or can you live with a quieter, normal flute?
There is a much greater demand for flutes with large holes and loud voices, so you can usually find a better deal on smaller, rudall-style flutes.
Then there is the price. Is anyone making an 8-key flute today for under $4,000? Adding C/C# foot keys is an expensive add-on.
For those reasons, I've sought out and played a number of 8-key 19th C antiques, both American and English. Good American flutes when renovated or in good shape can be found for $2,000 or so. English flutes, maybe in the same range unless they have the Rudall name on them in which case they'll be $3,000 or more. That is still MUCH less than a modern flute. You need to determine whether the flute plays reasonably at A440, if that's a requirement.
Are you seeking a loud, session flute, or can you live with a quieter, normal flute?
There is a much greater demand for flutes with large holes and loud voices, so you can usually find a better deal on smaller, rudall-style flutes.
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
You can certainly get under your budget with an antique 8-key. With modern makers, your best bets for reasonable prices are likely the Steffen Gabriel or a Breton maker. One U.S. flutemaker, Dave Copley, comes close in cost, but not after VAT/import tax. I'd think that a Boehm-like foot key setup could conceivably cost less than the traditional look you might prefer.
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
I recommend Steffen Gabriel. Despite his young age, the man knows a thing or two about flutemaking - and playing! I have played several of his wide-bore Rudall style flutes (don't own one yet). Beautiful craftsmanship, easy to fill from bottom to top, great dynamics and sound, spot-on tuning. What more can you expect? Recommended.
Christian
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
Lehart doesn't make 8-keyers, and Lesouef and Morvan no longer make them. The only Breton maker I know that still makes them is Pol Jezequel, and I expect the cost to be beyond 3500€. In France, Sébastien Villoing makes 8-keyers that fit Andrés' budget, but his website has been down for a while so I don't know if he's still making flutes. Does anyone know?
From what I've observed, an 8-keyer is typically 800-1000 €/$ more expensive than a 6-keyer. There doesn't seem to be a lot of makers in the 3000-3500€/$ price range nowadays, it is rather in the 4000-4500 €/$ bracket. To give some perspective, an 8-key Morvan cost 3600€ in 2012; in 2022, a 6-key Morvan costs 3900€ and as I said he no longer makes 8-keyers. Morvan's flutes are on the pricey side, but it gives an idea of the trend...
Antiques can be a great option, as others have pointed out, but intonation may not be as good as modern flutes optimized for A=440 (especially when using modern fingerings), and the foot keys might or might not work well. Buying a flute with foot keys that don't operate reliably would defeat the purpose of buying an 8-key flute!
I'm not sure about that. I know for a fact that John Gallagher charges significantly more for a Boehm foot joint, and as far as I know Steffen Gabriel charges the same (or at least he did when I asked him a couple of years ago).kkrell wrote:I'd think that a Boehm-like foot key setup could conceivably cost less than the traditional look you might prefer.
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
I haven't seen a boehm-style footjoint from John Gallagher, but the last time I discussed pricing with him, the normal old school C-foot was an extra $1200 USD, and a 6-key flute was $3000. His prices may have risen, as that was at least a couple years ago (on the other hand the price was the same from ~2009 to 2017, so...)
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
Thank you very much for all your comments and recommendations,
I prefer a loud flute, also for playing for myself even if I am only an amateur. I like flutes with great resonance.
From your comments I understand that my estimated budget is low for a new one. I have considered buying an antique flute but I am more concerned about buying it without having played it first, as many are playable at 440 but not so enjoyable (leaving aside their historical value or the interest in playing these instruments). I haven't ruled it out either. In fact, I have a flute from the second half of the 19th century with all the typical problems associated (high pitch, flat foot, G and A sharps, restored crack in the barrel, low volume). Unmarked, the craftsmanship is very similar to some Metzlers. I bought it for a first exploration of the use of the keys knowing that it was not a good flute, and not an expensive flute either.
I am from Spain but I am currently living in the UK and will be here for more than a year. I would have no problem buying in an EU country as well as in the UK.
I prefer a loud flute, also for playing for myself even if I am only an amateur. I like flutes with great resonance.
From your comments I understand that my estimated budget is low for a new one. I have considered buying an antique flute but I am more concerned about buying it without having played it first, as many are playable at 440 but not so enjoyable (leaving aside their historical value or the interest in playing these instruments). I haven't ruled it out either. In fact, I have a flute from the second half of the 19th century with all the typical problems associated (high pitch, flat foot, G and A sharps, restored crack in the barrel, low volume). Unmarked, the craftsmanship is very similar to some Metzlers. I bought it for a first exploration of the use of the keys knowing that it was not a good flute, and not an expensive flute either.
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
Prices from 2020: $4400 for an 8-key flute with the traditional foot joint, $5400 with a Boehm foot joint.NicoMoreno wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:48 am I haven't seen a boehm-style footjoint from John Gallagher, but the last time I discussed pricing with him, the normal old school C-foot was an extra $1200 USD, and a 6-key flute was $3000. His prices may have risen, as that was at least a couple years ago (on the other hand the price was the same from ~2009 to 2017, so...)
Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
Wow, I'm surprised, but haven't seen his implementation. If you have a more complete version of his pricing (as of 2020 or beyond), I'd appreciate receiving a listing.Flutern wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:29 amPrices from 2020: $4400 for an 8-key flute with the traditional foot joint, $5400 with a Boehm foot joint.NicoMoreno wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:48 am I haven't seen a boehm-style footjoint from John Gallagher, but the last time I discussed pricing with him, the normal old school C-foot was an extra $1200 USD, and a 6-key flute was $3000. His prices may have risen, as that was at least a couple years ago (on the other hand the price was the same from ~2009 to 2017, so...)
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
I'd like to second that advice. Traditional C# and C pewter cup foot keys are a weak point in the design (IMO). They have to fit and work *perfectly* to get those notes.Flutern wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:07 amAntiques can be a great option, as others have pointed out, but intonation may not be as good as modern flutes optimized for A=440 (especially when using modern fingerings), and the foot keys might or might not work well. Buying a flute with foot keys that don't operate reliably would defeat the purpose of buying an 8-key flute!
I have a modern (Aebi) recreation of an 8-key Rudall flute that I bought used, with traditional pewter cups on the foot. The C# works but the C key doesn't sound at all. The pewter cup is very slightly misaligned with the metal hole so it doesn't seal completely. Looks like the lever arm was very slightly bent at some point before I bought it.
I haven't bothered to have it repaired because I don't currently play any tunes that require the low C. The C# is something I need for a few tunes. A repair that involves bending or otherwise tweaking that pewter cup to fit is going to be more expensive that a simple pad replacement like the other keys.
My other modern 8-key flute (a Noy Nicholson) was also bought used, and both foot keys work fine. They use salt spoon-style cups and pads like the other keys on the flute, which I feel is a better, or at least more reliable way to design the foot keys even if it doesn't look traditional. If I ever bought another 8-key flute I'd be looking for that style of key and cup/pad on the foot, limiting the choice to modern makers instead of antiques.
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
As has already been mentioned, there are some hybrid 8 key flutes that utilized the Boehm foot mechanism. I have a post and axle ´dealer´s´ flute approximately 140 years old. Oddly enough, it appears to have been optimised to about A=435 hz so has relatively excellent intonation. Keep looking, you never know what you´ll find.
Bob
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
You should consider speaking with Jay Ham. He makes a Rudall pattern 8 key flute capable of producing excellent volume, his work is extraordinary and he is great to work with—very good customer service. HIs foot joint is a work of art.
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
Thanks! Is that with a case?Flutern wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:29 amPrices from 2020: $4400 for an 8-key flute with the traditional foot joint, $5400 with a Boehm foot joint.NicoMoreno wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:48 am I haven't seen a boehm-style footjoint from John Gallagher, but the last time I discussed pricing with him, the normal old school C-foot was an extra $1200 USD, and a 6-key flute was $3000. His prices may have risen, as that was at least a couple years ago (on the other hand the price was the same from ~2009 to 2017, so...)
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Re: Suggestions for 8-key D flutes
No, the case was on top of that ($180 for a Northwind case).
Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.