The flute and Irish history

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Mr.Gumby
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by Mr.Gumby »

; the question in my mind would be how much of a link we can draw to what we consider "Irish flute playing" to be today.
A look at the sort of music in the Neale collection should give a firm answer: There's very little to link its content to the current styles or repertoire. It's content reinforces the impression of the flute being, at that time, a drawing room instrument, a gentleman's instrument. In other words, it doesn't strike you as a collection of traditional music as we understand it. The image chosen for the cover of the reissue(s) , in my mind, only reinforces that notion: the flute is part of a grouping with the oboe, violin, recorder and lute etc., not as something that could be taken as a setting we would identify as 'traditional'.

Only once discarded, louder English type instruments started coming in, use and styles of fluteplaying that we know today started to develop among country people playing music for dances.

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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by PB+J »

I'm not sure it's only country people though. There's a strong bias in Irish music history towards rural life and the fount of all that's good. I hear a lot of tunes in the current repertoire as being re-appropriations or even parodies of parlor tunes. These can come from urban culture as much as rural, and people were always giving overseas and coming back
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I am not sure about 'all that's good' but the music we now consider 'traditional' was not an urban pursuit. Some would argue, with valid reasons, that it was a culture that persisted in the poorest areas of the country, the 'hidden Ireland'. Even when it emerged in urban settings, both here and elsewhere, during the 20th century, it were the country people that took it there and passed it on among generations of their families and it stayed there, scorned by the 'townies' until it started taking on an air of relative respectability and moved eventually towards a boom of popularity. And I say popularity with the caveat that while all this stuff may be more widespread than ever before, it remains a bit of a niche interest.

A case in point is perhaps Dublin's Pipers Club'. It was the epicentre of traditional music in Dublin (brilliantly documented in great detail by Mick O'Connor, who should finally publish the work). The hard core of the club were all relatively new arrivals in the city, first or second generation. I remember Mick Tubridy saying it was the place to meet like minded country people in a new and strange place.

But even small country towns had no culture or acceptance of 'traditional music to speak of during most of the 20th century. Geraldine Cotter's thesis on the music in Ennis documents that well, for example.

All this doesn't mean all sorts of tunes haven't made their way into the repertoire. Musicians, obviously, tend to take up whatever catches their fancy, or whatever is in demand (for dancing or otherwise).
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by GreenWood »

I am with Mr. Gumby there, will try to assemble a broad impression, tentatively.

I think flute and whistle were played from prehistory onwards, but I don't know how common, how part of public music, that was.

I expect rennaisance style flutes were made and played rurally up until quite recently (say 19th century), some probably are still made occasionally.

I think the later styles of instruments were occasionally introduced to rural settings. This time period is one of British influence where the cities were not really playing Irish music, say 1600 to 1800 . The rural communities would have had their own music, dance music and airs and song, some of those introduced but made their own. I don't know how much flute and whistle were part of the playing, but certainly were not absent.


19th century was a time of disruption, band music, new arrangements to society and ultimately the famine. I think traditional music carried on in the more rural settings from before. Even first half of the century has little to document in terms of flute playing, but it was definitely present and likely with a mixture of different kinds of flute in the hands of different players. After the famine the mood changed drastically, I think rural playing would have much reduced but still continued, as well as abroad in its own way. In this time there is more documentation of instruments being imported. It is also the time when many local tunes were collected, as opposed to those that were deemed of value in the semi-formal book presentations of the 18th century, aimed at aspiring middle class.

For 20th century there were different levels of interference in rural playing , the setting up of standardised presentations, the ability of rural players to play in more public environment, both in the cities and eventually via media.

I really would not know where to start in trying to draw a clearer picture, because and very simply, documentary evidence before 1850 or even 1900 is very very sparse. Modern traditional music is "new", but it was not just invented out of nowhere, it is a continuation of the myriad of different sources and styles, both music and player, that survived to the day and that merged into more modern presentation. That side of it all is not what has me wondering in fact, what does is how traditional music continues from here, given modernity and ending of older ways and styles of life will also affect how the music is played. I expect those in Ireland will know much better at that level, I read different accounts. Obviously it is an illusion to try to reproduce any epoch of playing and expect it to be the same as previously, so it is always treading into the unknown to a degree, which I find daunting...maybe that is one reason we have traditional music, to keep us company as well as to provide continuity and familiarity ?
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by GreenWood »

For the carved decoration pictured above, I think it was more based on a style than indicative of instruments played there. Then again, it might have been composed with instruments at hand to copy from.

Here is another interesting collection of carvings at Leon Cathedral (12th and 13th century), pdf link under the image

https://digibuo.uniovi.es/dspace/handle/10651/59706

Lots of whistles there, with drum and with bells. Not sure what with bells would sound like. Also all other instruments of the day. I just include it because Ireland was not completely isolated and so continental instruments might have been known.

The following is a little off topic maybe, I had bookmarked it previously to compare how music survives in both informal and formalised settings. In other words local flamenco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lG__Cp8Swkc

And where it is merged with religious events (Camino del Rocio) in a slightly more "sanitised" or devotional setting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KcaYB5WLDqM

The whistle on the track is drum and pipe, of which there is still some tradition.

That link in school buildings was very interesting Mr.Gumby. In Spain there was a place I would explore for ruins, and eventually found a map from 18th century with all I had found drawn on. All the ruins were spaced across the countryside to a neat plan, all were abandoned late 19th century as population moved to cities. It was like going back to the way of life in 19th century, with all items found there being from that time only.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by PB+J »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:25 am I am not sure about 'all that's good' but the music we now consider 'traditional' was not an urban pursuit. Some would argue, with valid reasons, that it was a culture that persisted in the poorest areas of the country, the 'hidden Ireland'. Even when it emerged in urban settings, both here and elsewhere, during the 20th century, it were the country people that took it there and passed it on among generations of their families and it stayed there, scorned by the 'townies' until it started taking on an air of relative respectability and moved eventually towards a boom of popularity. And I say popularity with the caveat that while all this stuff may be more widespread than ever before, it remains a bit of a niche interest.

A case in point is perhaps Dublin's Pipers Club'. It was the epicentre of traditional music in Dublin (brilliantly documented in great detail by Mick O'Connor, who should finally publish the work). The hard core of the club were all relatively new arrivals in the city, first or second generation. I remember Mick Tubridy saying it was the place to meet like minded country people in a new and strange place.

But even small country towns had no culture or acceptance of 'traditional music to speak of during most of the 20th century. Geraldine Cotter's thesis on the music in Ennis documents that well, for example.

All this doesn't mean all sorts of tunes haven't made their way into the repertoire. Musicians, obviously, tend to take up whatever catches their fancy, or whatever is in demand (for dancing or otherwise).

Well the historical pattern in really every country in the 19th century is migration from rural to urban. It's everywhere. Americans made a big deal of migration to the western frontier, but overwhelmingly the movement was from rural areas to urban areas. Millions more people move from farms to cities. it's less pronounced in Ireland, as far as I know, because Ireland is largely prevented from industrializing except in the far north. But its still there. In the US again the genres most associated in the public mind with rural life--blues and country--both come to prominence as millions of white and black people are moving to cities. In cities, they produce stylized versions of rural life. Most of American country music is a stylized version of ruralness, "Country and Western." Rural music gets "reified" to use the fancy term: abstract ideas get concretized. This is partly what I think is going on with O'Neill

And here again the framing of Irish music is produced by urban people working in a context made possible by urbanization, Breandan Breathnach was from Dublin, no? Also Seamus Ennis? And of course they were collecting from rural people, and rural people are understood as the real being collected and preserved, the raw material of culture. But maybe it's possible to see this relationship differently.

It's common to imagine cities as kind of parasites feeding on farms, but you can just as easily see this as a symbiotic relationship: farming is not viable except as bare subsistence unless you have the markets and transportation networks and access to capital and technology provided by towns and cities. And here again O'Neill--his family is marketing butter and dairy in Cork. He grows up in a rural area in a symbiotic relationship with the city. He just chooses not to stress that part. Surely they played instrumental dance music in Cork in 1860.

It would also surely be the case that rural people from dispersed areas would produce a synthesis of their various local traditions in the city, but they would be engaged in trying to make sense of their own displacement--where did we come from and what is the relationship of our "now" to our "then?" This is what creative people do.

So I'd argue of course there is music in rural areas, but A: It's already influenced by the co-dependent rural/urban ecosystem, and B: it only gets to the larger world, like the O'Neill's butter, through urban life, collectors and distributors working in an urban context.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by GreenWood »

I wouldn't argue with much of what you are saying there PB+J, though reification is disputable in the sense that any presentation as a genre as opposed to just being played amongst locals is going to create some kind of distinction. How that distinction is interpreted as meant is open to question, and the way it is taken up by urban society and amplified is yet another.

Equally, the way the relationship between rural and urban is portrayed is more the argument, rather than the fact that it was a reality. If the onus is placed on city influence in any description then that description will look very different to one that concentrates on rural music playing as source. For example O'Neil was city promoting rural possibly, but whether he was doing so to please the city or to value the rural is open to question, it was possibly both.

The flow of population from rural to urban can be viewed in various ways. For example the rural population in Ireland is similar now to 1800, very roughly. That might be read as a stable cultural setting, where increase in size leads to emigration. It would also have to be defined, if that were even possible, what counts as a "stable cultural setting". It isn't to say migration to urban environment does not provide different opportunities for any music, or that there is no return influence from the cities, more that the "emptying out of the countryside" should be understood using large timelines. Even then, the kind of society which existed during that time, its music, would be open to all kinds of variation due to other circumstance. Point being it is basically an intangible. I don't think even those living in rural Ireland now would be able to properly quantify its "cultural productivity", and I doubt any would want to view it that way.

What I would argue though, is that farming is viable beyond subsistence, but higher productivity requires manufactured goods (e.g. tractors). The irony in that being that farm labour is then reduced, which leaves a population that is not required (is unproductive) . Obviously everything shakes out in some way, but ultimately the farmer is the essential producer, everyone else not so much and not minding as long as they are able to feed themselves. Farming a surplus is hard work, even with machinery, few in the city would be up to it, so I would not say parasites but dependent and often ungrateful. A lot of people in the city have their priorities confused and like to think they deserve or are due or have earned, when again in reality not so much.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by david_h »

PB+J wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:07 am... because Ireland is largely prevented from industrializing except in the far north ...
What by?
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by PB+J »

david_h wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:30 pm
PB+J wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:07 am... because Ireland is largely prevented from industrializing except in the far north ...
What by?
English colonial policy. I realize this will sound like I'm being very provocative but it's extremely clear the policy from London was to keep Ireland as a breadbasket and source of rent revenue.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by david_h »

PB+J wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:10 pm
david_h wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:30 pm
PB+J wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:07 am... because Ireland is largely prevented from industrializing except in the far north ...
What by?
English colonial policy. I realize this will sound like I'm being very provocative but it's extremely clear the policy from London was to keep Ireland as a breadbasket and source of rent revenue.
You don't think there not being any coalfields might have something to do with it? And maybe not much wood (re the small chairs, above)
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by GreenWood »

"More recently, Johnson has also
expressed some doubt on the decline hypothesis, pointing out that pre-partition Ireland compared favourably with most European countries in terms of the percentage of the economically active population employed in industry and construction. Ireland only appeared to fall behind when compared to Britain and the other most advanced European nations."

http://etheses.lse.ac.uk/1326/1/U062811.pdf




"The common perception of 19th-century Ireland is of an economy overwhelmingly dominated by agriculture. This squares poorly with the census of 1821, where over two-fifths of Irishmen and Irishwomen declaring an occupation were ‘chiefly employed in trades, manufactures, or handicraft’. Nor was non-agricultural employment confined to the northeast. Aside from rural proto-industry, late 18th-century Irish cities and towns contained hundreds of factories and workshops, embodying traditional and modern technologies. The new inventions of the Industrial Revolution caught on quickly in Ireland. In addition, more traditional industries such as glass- and paper-making, the production of woollens and silks, printing, shipbuilding, sugar refining, milling, tanning, brewing, and distilling were important, though they catered largely for local markets. Many of them faced decline in the following century or so. This chapter outlines the history of some of these industries."

Industry, c. 1780–1914: An Overview Cormac Ó Gráda




"The economy of the south of Ireland was mostly agrarian prior to quasi independence from the U.K. The reasons for this are manifold, in short; lack of suitable natural resources, lack of capital to develop industry, political and social instability, lack of government interest in developing an industrial sector.

The economy of Northern Ireland(Ulster-prior to 1922) did develop a significant industrial sector based around the port of Belfast and the Lagan valley. The majority of the developments occurred in the 19th century. They imported the vast majority of the iron, steel, coal required. Major exports were ships, engineering, aircraft and linen. Belfast at one point had the largest shipbuilders in the world."

Boyd Quora


Very mixed picture, and then there are those who would be thankful also that large scale industrialisation did not take place in Ireland.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by PB+J »

david_h wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:35 pm
PB+J wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:10 pm
david_h wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:30 pm What by?
English colonial policy. I realize this will sound like I'm being very provocative but it's extremely clear the policy from London was to keep Ireland as a breadbasket and source of rent revenue.
You don't think there not being any coalfields might have something to do with it? And maybe not much wood (re the small chairs, above)
I believe it was part of the United Kingdom, which had quite a lot of coal.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by david_h »

PB+J wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:44 pm
david_h wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:35 pm
PB+J wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:10 pm

English colonial policy. I realize this will sound like I'm being very provocative but it's extremely clear the policy from London was to keep Ireland as a breadbasket and source of rent revenue.
You don't think there not being any coalfields might have something to do with it? And maybe not much wood (re the small chairs, above)
I believe it was part of the United Kingdom, which had quite a lot of coal.
It costs money to transport. A map 19th century UK industry is a map of the coalfields. Why would Ireland be an exception? Much the same in Europe. How was it in the USA?
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Well the historical pattern in really every country in the 19th century is migration from rural to urban. It's everywhere. Americans made a big deal of migration to the western frontier, but overwhelmingly the movement was from rural areas to urban areas. Millions more people move from farms to cities. it's less pronounced in Ireland, as far as I know, because Ireland is largely prevented from industrializing except in the far north. But its still there. In the US again the genres most associated in the public mind with rural life--blues and country--both come to prominence as millions of white and black people are moving to cities. In cities, they produce stylized versions of rural life. Most of American country music is a stylized version of ruralness, "Country and Western." Rural music gets "reified" to use the fancy term: abstract ideas get concretized. This is partly what I think is going on with O'Neill

And here again the framing of Irish music is produced by urban people working in a context made possible by urbanization, Breandan Breathnach was from Dublin, no? Also Seamus Ennis? And of course they were collecting from rural people, and rural people are understood as the real being collected and preserved, the raw material of culture. But maybe it's possible to see this relationship differently.

It's common to imagine cities as kind of parasites feeding on farms, but you can just as easily see this as a symbiotic relationship: farming is not viable except as bare subsistence unless you have the markets and transportation networks and access to capital and technology provided by towns and cities. And here again O'Neill--his family is marketing butter and dairy in Cork. He grows up in a rural area in a symbiotic relationship with the city. He just chooses not to stress that part. Surely they played instrumental dance music in Cork in 1860.
The discussion has moved to the coalfields, the heavy industry springing up around Arigna and all that, and it's probably best to let things flow . But there are nits to pick there. Ennis was from North County Dublin, which was a rural area, Jamestown lodge was set among farmland. Both Ennis sr and jr as well as Breandán B. were pipers, there are other things and motivations at play there, all tied up in post-rising society, nationalism and preserving the culture (and the instrument) that are perhaps different, or at least more intensely felt, from flute playing and the general traditional music world. Best to let that sit there for the moment.

But really I don't think there's all that much we can do to bring our points of view regarding the urban/rural divide closer together, my experience with all this is different to yours and we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Let's just say your experience with music in the US, and examples, don't, to my mind, readily translate to the situation of traditional music in Ireland.

I'll let you get back to the coalface :tomato:
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by PB+J »

The earliest industrialization in the US was in New England, and coal had nothing to do with it. it was all about water power. Ireland has lot of streams and rivers..

Among coal dependent industries, Philly was about 2 hours by rail from the anthractice fields. Pittsburgh the same. Detroit was not near coal. Cincinnati was not especially close to coal. New York had lots of industry and no nearby coal. It was certainly an advantage to be near coal, but Chicago was massively industrialized and though they mined coal in illinois, it was shipped to Chicago by rail from farther east.

Look at ireland and it's completely obvious what's going on. The places where the Island is most heavily industrialized are near Belfast, the most heavily protestant-settled as part of deliberate strategy of settler colonialism. Capital goes to those areas, an they develop a very successful textile industry and shipbuilding. Lack of coal mines is not a problem. The rest of the island is dominated by people who own landed estates, and by dominated I mean "entirely politically controlled," with a legal and judicial system geared to the interests of people in landed estates. Capital does not flow into Ireland--except in the areas around Belfast--it flows out, in the form of rents, which amount to millions of pounds annually. the landord class for the most part bitterly resists any changes to that system. As everyone points out, as people starve during the famine, food was still being shipped to England. Is this related in some way to lack of coal? No, it indicates Ireland's role in the United Kingdom was mostly to grow food. They could ship food out, but not ship coal in? They could ship human beings out, but not sail coal in? It's not exclusive to ireland--Why is Sicily not industrialized? Because its role vis a vis Italy was to supply food under the rule of large landlords. And as with ireland it ships tens of thousands of people to the US and elsewhere, to feed the demand for industrial labor which does not exist at home, because of political policy.

By 1870 there are ships leaving every single day between liverpool and New York, carrying Irish emigrants. It's an entirely regularized and routinzed trade. So I'm sure they could have managed shipping coal from Holyhead to dublin: there was abundant cheap labor to offset the relatively modest cost of shipping coal..

The primary interest of the Anglo irish ruling class is finding more profitable uses for rural land, so they encourage cattle rearing--to feed the industrial revolution in England--and they do their best to get the native Irish to leave, rather than foster the kind of industrialization you see in nearly every other country in Europe. This class of people is highly committed to a specific lifestyle; so much so that by the twentieth century they are going bankrupt and selling off land to pay debts. It's ultimately economically irrational behavior, like, say, buying Twitter for more than it's worth, or investing heavily in crypto.

When the Anglo Irish make attempts to "industrialize" Ireland they do so in every specific ways--look for example at the two "irish Villages" at the 1893 world's fair in Chicago. They were both run by women interested in fostering cottage industry in Ireland--weaving, home crafts industries, things that remained charming and rural. The chairperson of the Association of Irish Industries is Lady Aberdeen. She imagines the future of Irish industry as people making lace napkins for Chicago department stores. I am not making this up: Both "Irish village"s were an attempt to imagine "irish industry." This at a time when hundreds of thousands of Irish born people were working in Chicago, one of the most heavily industrialized cities n the world. Lady Aberdeen is the class of people and the mindset I'm talking about. This article is another example--https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/perio ... 40629.2.25. Mrs Alice Hart's entire Donegal Village including the workers was shipped to Wanamaker's department store in Philly. Philly was at that time the most industrialized city in the US, possibly the world, with the second largest population of Irish people laboring in its many industries.

You could certainly find industry in the counties in the south, but it's undercapitalized, and the mindset of the Anglo irish ruling class, as in the example of Mrs. Hart and Lady Aberdeen above, is focused controlling the process of industrialization in ways that preserve the charm of the peasantry.

To return to the subject at hand, this is the context in which O'Neill is collecting music--a context where he could walk four blocks and go see lady Aberdeen's vision of irish "industry."
Last edited by PB+J on Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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