The flute and Irish history

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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by an seanduine »

Ah, well, I confess, living out here on the western edge of the States I still use archaisms. :D My maternal Grandfather was born in 1876 and passed away in 1965, so the verbal time-machine is quite familiar. When he was confused about something he would declare he was unsure ´if he was on foot or on horseback!´. :D

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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by Terry McGee »

My Irish mum had lots. One of my favourites was "I'm putting my foot down with a firm hand". You can't get much more determined than that!
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by PB+J »

My grandfather grew up on "fermoy road" in upstate PA. Farmers, all from Cork orignally. Moylans.

He had lots of phrases and expressions but my favorite was he would always say "Hark!" in place of "quiet!" If we kids were making a lot of noise and he was watching a ballgame he would yell "Hark!" I don't know if this is an Irishism or american country thing.

He also grew up with stories about the puca in the woods, a figure with the body of a man and the head of a goat, and mysterious lights in the woods that would lure you off the road, and there was man in the parish with a withered arm which resulted, he told me, from the man having struck a priest.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by GreenWood »

PB+J

"Greenwood, there is a long history of land reform..."

I don't question anything you are saying there at all, and I am not studied enough to be able to do more than question. The "argument" is not over how little land local Irish were left with previously , and that much of that was not freehold and so leaving tenants vulnerable to exaction of some kind or another, as well as non ownership denying incentives to improve own circumstance, because those are well documented realities. The picture I am looking at instead is the accuracy of the description of society as a whole, as well as bias in description that might easily appear in one form or another, or over generalisation.

The change in catholic ownership levels might as equally be willingness to declare alegiance of some kind. It might be that earlier surveys were biased for political reasons to give one impression or another, the reasonings for that could be endless. Dun did not seem to imply the reforms after 1850 led to vast change of ownership, and where so for smaller holdings only. Added to the confusion of labels is that various landlords must have been Anglo-Irish, by intermarriage or simply by accustomisation ? Should a british survey be used as reference even, symbolic as it is of foreign rule ? Where Ireland would be without that history is unanswerable as well, and so we are left with what we have.

The point I'm making is that though laws and related national stances are clear cut definitions, often with marked events to help define them, societies and how they were and worked are very organic in nature. To say "catholic" or "british" or "protestant" only works at a certain level, and in many ways I find those terms polarising or divisive. It is understandable similar categorisations were made previously to be able to redefine nations, because frankly most people are happier with a simple known definition of identity that has a known firm political stance which they might relate or adhere to. However from a historic perspective that is able to look at events from a distance, admittedly without the personal real world pressures of the day, there is much more subtlety to be found. I think it would be a disservice not to reconcile those facets properly, to try to extend certain paradigms to a time where they no longer are fully relevant would create tensions. I don't say this as "a brit who would rather not know or take responsibility ", I say it as a complete outsider watching how pre-existing arguments are not reconciled but continuously used by various sides as position makers. There is so much understanding to be had, younger generations for example will want to be able to involve themselves fully in the previous centuries without fear of running foul of outdated stereotypes of any kind , because otherwise they are only presented with a sense of loss or inequity, or of failure.

Various times I have come across it presented that Ireland lacked identity, often in relation to end of 20th century. I don't find this as true, just as I don't find the idea of primitive dwellings as primitive, or modern trappings particularly well thought out or productive. The notion of a country or religion is quite amorphous, sometimes a corporate reality that often lacks responsibility or definition, and beyond physical boundaries it is very much the business of any community alone to make of their reality what they will. That means there is no competition of "identity", a peoples are what they are and stand for, and their richness is as much found in the honest simplicity of their ways and their connection with their own history as any kind of ambition, and much less so projections or pressures from without which can be very unhelpful.

Too much association of religion with state can be very unhelpful. Portugal separated the two over a hundred years ago for example, and so they remained since, even through a conservative governance that is still highly lauded. Coming from Spain where the church is heavily promoted, Portugal seems abandoned in that sense, and yet survey I have seen places Portugal as more devoted than Spain. There is a maturity and evolution to Portugal where religion has somewhat humbly found its place. In Spain on the other hand there is reticence and resentment to show for perception of religion taking or abusing a position higher than thought deserved by many.

It is tangential maybe, but the route traditional music has taken in each country is distinct, sometimes only surviving synchretically with religion, sometimes oppressed or promoted to own ends by religion, sometimes simply flourishing outside of religious influence.

In the modern world the pressures are now different on folk music, mostly due to a complete change in usual setting, in everyday ways, but I guess it will do what it has always done, which is to somehow adapt.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by PB+J »

GreenWood wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:31 pm PB+J

"Greenwood, there is a long history of land reform..."

To say "catholic" or "british" or "protestant" only works at a certain level, and in many ways I find those terms polarising or divisive.
Right, you find them "polarizing" because in the period you are reading about, they were in fact polarizing. Welcome to the legacy of history. That you find it polarizing, and find polarization uncomfortable, won't change the work that sectarian religious division did in history, and the legacy of that work can't be wished away. Its like saying "I find talk about Nazi's polarizing. Can't we talk about how much Nazis liked polka?" We could, but we would be ignoring a lot, no?
GreenWood wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:31 pm Various times I have come across it presented that Ireland lacked identity, often in relation to end of 20th century.
I don't know why you would say this--Irish political agitation for independence in the 19th century is intense: in the US and in Ireland there are multiple organizations dedicated to raising money, agitating politically, or using "physical force" to obtain Irish independence. In the US, Fenians invaded Canada five times in an effort to bring about Irish independence. They built a submarine in the 1860s, to attack British shipping on the great lakes. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_Ram) The Crown coined the term "terrorist" to describe Irish organization with a strong Irish identity.

At the exact time when O'Neill began his collecting Chicago was convulsed by the murder of Dr. Patrick Cronin, who was a member of an irish natioanlist organization, Clan Na Gael. The chicago police were heavily involved in Clan Na Gael, and several policeman were apparently involved in his murder. From my book:

The murder caused a sensation: Cronin also had many loyal admirers in the Clan Na Gael, and because so many policemen be- longed to the Clan, Chief Hubbard ordered Irish American detectives removed from the investigation. “The Irishman’s prejudices are very strong,” Hubbard said, “and if any one of them sympathized with any of the warring factions he could not do efficient work on the case.” The men eventually tried for the crime included a police detective, John Coughlin. Captain Michael Schaack, seen earlier de- fending police at Haymarket, was removed from the investigation for concealing evidence and replaced with Herman Schuettler, whom Chief O’Neill would later name as his assistant.

Almost 12,000 people had filed past the coffin at Cronin’s funeral, representing all classes and all ages, “from the child scarcely able to toddle to the aged man, walking with faltering, uncertain steps. Parents took their children and their grandparents. The day laborer walked beside the well-dressed professional man.” The Tribune claimed 40,000 people lined the streets to witness the funeral procession. The case, termed “the Crime of the Century,” made the front pages nationally and in England and Ireland

Although a police detective was convicted for helping murder Cronin, a platoon of Chicago police marched in the procession: the department was dangerously divided. O’Neill says nothing at all about Clan Na Gael or the Cronin case in his memoirs. The only possible mention comes a year after the funeral, when O’Neill took charge of the stockyards district. The area “was controlled politically by a limited coterie whose influence may be considered dictatorial,” he wrote, meaning Father Mau-rice Dorney, then “known as ‘the king of the yards,’ . . . famous for his ability to find employment in the stockyards and packing houses.” Dorney belonged to Clan Na Gael, “held an annual celebration of the birth of the Irish republican martyr Robert Emmet, regularly spoke at the Irish republican events, and was a very close friend of Alexander Sullivan.” O’Neill’s reluctance to speak any names suggests the intensity of Irish nationalist politics, still felt thirty years later.


So clearly Ireland did not "lack identity," and just as clearly O'Neill's interest in traditional music arose in the context of extremely dangerous nationalist politics. That you disapprove of these things does not change the context from which O'Neil's collections emerged.

In the twentieth century Ireland did not "lack identity": it first became the Irish free state through violent struggle, then became the Irish republic: this is pretty much the definition of of dentity as a nation.

But you can't simply wish it away the historical legacy of the institutional, legal and demographic consequences. It's odd to claim "tradition" matters but history does not: my point again is that what you are framing as tradition is in fact the product of radical disruption.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by Terry McGee »

Invading Canada five times? Child's play!

Nowhere was safe from these upstarts. Clan na Gael even mounted an extraordinary mission to rescue six Fenian prisoners from a jail in Western Australia and bring them to safety back to the US. This involved buying a ship (the three-master barque Catalpa) in 1874, restoring her and crewing her as a whaling ship, leaving New Bedford, Mass, in April 1875, hunting whales for 5 months and offloading the oil in the Azores, finally arriving off Bunbury Western Australia in late March 1876. Meanwhile other conspiritors had previously arrived in WA and were quietly organising the land part of the rescue. After some shenanigans, the rescue was carried out, the men absconding from the jail, rushed by horse traps to a waiting whaleboat and transferred to the Catalpa. She then headed for open water, but was then challenged by the Royal Navy ship Georgette. They pointed to the Star Spangled Banner and challenged the British captain to fire upon her, from which he wisely demurred. Six pesky prisoners were not worth an international incident. The Catalpa safely reached New York by August 1876.

So, a two year operation, involving buying and crewing a whaleship, sailing it around the world, and thumbing your nose at the local authorities. Such courage, lateral-thinking, outrageous confidence. Think Zelenksyy.

And of course, being Irish, there is a song, simply called the Catalpa. Sung to the tune Rosin the Beau: http://folkstream.com/021.html or on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE90_3m ... rica-Topic

Story at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalpa_rescue

or on RTE at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHYDsVz ... binaHarney

(Lots more versions of the song and the story on the web.)
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by PB+J »

:thumbsup: Up the catalpa!

Of course I live in land that once belonged to Native American so I’m not claiming moral superiority, just highlighting the relationship of tradition and disruption
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by Terry McGee »

Indeed, PB&J. We here in Australia are in the same position, aware that a lot of bad stuff has happened to our native peoples that has not been addressed. Our new government is intent on setting up an indigenous "Voice to Parliament" to start righting these wrongs. It's vital work, but it's going to take some time. And there are those who would argue it shouldn't happen.

Here too, the Irish fall into a middle ground. Not as badly treated as the natives, but not as well treated as the ruling classes. There were rebellions here - eg the Castle Hill (Vinegar Hill) Rebellion in 1804, but these failed. But again, the indomitable spirit of the Irish prevails, and historians note that there are many Australian characteristics that can only be attributed to the Irish. Interesting for example that our formal flag is Red, White and Blue, but our sporting colours are Green and Gold. "Here's to the flag that flies high over Dublin..."
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by GreenWood »

PB+J

"Right, you find them "polarizing" because in the period you are reading about, they were in fact polarizing. Welcome to the legacy of history. That you find it polarizing, and find polarization uncomfortable, won't change the work that sectarian religious division did in history, and the legacy of that work can't be wished away. Its like saying "I find talk about Nazi's polarizing. Can't we talk about how much Nazis liked polka?" "

I don't disagree there, but to use your own description, it is "legacy". If someone approaches me with a "polarised" argument of which I do not feel part of, I will feel uncomfortable. I will feel uncomfortable because I will think that person is trying to restart and raise an agenda that no longer exists, either trying to make a patsie of myself or to draw me into conflict as a useful idiot. History cannot be wished away, I find that the polarization that goes with Nazism is implemented and sustained, because proper factual historical analysis is not allowed, and therefore settlement is denied. I feel uncomfortable with that creation of polarisation, not with an analytic of socialist direction that merged with dictatorial management, nor with a reliable factual account of the level of genocide that took place, nor with deeper understanding of the wider geo-political maneuvering or background influences that guided the whole circumstance. If I were to feel uncomfortable with any of those it would be due to direct threat to myself, i.e. of being ostracised, persecuted or jailed, for asking a question. That is our reality in europe, literally, and it is strongly polarising.

"I don't know why you would say this"

I said immediately after that I found that not to be true. In fact the sources who say that I find as taunting, flaunting, or agitative.


"In the twentieth century Ireland did not "lack identity": it first became the Irish free state through violent struggle, then became the Irish republic: this is pretty much the definition of identity as a nation."

Yes, identity as opposed to other, but ultimately a falsity. In a world where there was only one nation, say an island, it would not hold a historical definition related to "other", that would not be possible. So I reduce the notion of nation to meaning the shared values of a people, where teritorial definition or "the other" is secondary.


"It's odd to claim "tradition" matters but history does not: my point again is that what you are framing as tradition is in fact the product of radical disruption."

I don't say history doesn't matter, the existing tradition, as you point out, is part product of disruptions, but I think tradition, deep tradition, originates as a positive influence. In other words, even where reciprocal to difficulty encountered, its emphasis is to steady and maintain that which is most of worth. It pays tribute to values and customs essential to community wellbeing.

So I would rather look at and emphasise that positive aspect, rather than have it eclipsed by other realities, including historical and political argument.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by GreenWood »

I still have not found a wider description of rural life in pre-19th century Ireland, as relates to music or dance. There are various reasons for this maybe, for example

Carolan and the Dislocation of Music in Ireland

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30071469

looks at the approach to Irish music by commentators in Carolan's time. That in itself just reinforces the perception that most textual documentation is by either gentry, British, tourers and similar. Put more simply, local rural customs do not seem to have been given more than occasional mentions, for the various known reasons. Ultimately, I expect the lack of rural literacy sealed the affair.

There is much to be understood on this, there is quite a lot written on the theme of cultural presentation/non presentation from various viewpoints, and this is not the place for that. Possibly even there is a text that manages to describe music and entertainment in rural life more fully for earlier centuries, but I have not found it. So we are left with a scattering of mixed insights, sometimes biased, but enough to understand that local music and dance was common enough from pre-history.

I was recently reading on iron age "proto-history" in Portugal, a discussion paper. The common academic view seems to be that a history does not start until a people document themselves, until they offer that perception of written awareness. I don't actually agree with that, or simply think that it is an arbitrary definition. It would otherwise imply that only written history counts somehow, but clearly most of what goes on in the world still goes undocumented. Even today...what we see on TV etc. is a minute part of it all, it just seems it takes up a lot because we give it a lot of our time. It remains though that written description for earlier Ireland is sparse or very selective, and so reconstructing it would be quite a task, one that is started and will undoubtedly be added to over time.

So to return to music, and here I was searching up on dance as proxy.

Carole, Rondeau and Branle in Ireland 1300-1800: Part 1 The Walling of New Ross and Dance Texts in the Red Book of Ossory Joan Rimmer

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1290577

Is quite fascinating as it talks of 14th century Anglo-Norman carole dancing in Ireland, goes over how secular non-religious music was used in religious compositions, and mentions reference to introduced forms trying to displace or differentiate from local song and dance, often finding the influence working in the opposite direction. In other words, even then Ireland had its own music and dance, enough for the clergy of the day to react to. Part 2 is available in search from same site, looks at the survival of those dances and music to later times.

From there we skip a few centuries and

https://www.concertinajournal.org/House ... t/ch_4.htm

Has a clear explanation of the change in dance and music mid 18th through to 20th century. Although it is not clear from it what rural tastes in dance and music were, I should think that apart from keeping some of own, that more modern influences would have also been known. A subsequent page from the one linked gives an example of change in played music repertory of actual musicians through 19th century.

Finally a link that gives an explanation of various kinds of Irish folk drama, various of which involved music of some kind

https://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/drama.htm



The first essay above outlines how music in the 18th century "laboured under the burden of both politcal and social incompatibility as well as aesthetic incompatibility". There is a slight irony then maybe that in the early 20th century music seems to have become something of a counter reform to those differences that had crystallised through the 19th century, but holding onto a certain bias, only to emerge challenged by modern music and dance. Apart from session and private playing, it looks to have reached "art form" status, also merged into international popular music forms. Irish dance, whether due to early 20th century efforts, or in spite of, has remained strong compared to many other countries.

The point I am trying to emphasize though is that through all of this time, right back to earliest, there has been a continuity, and it isn't simply a romanticised jump of ancient origin into whatever present. That is there in some form also, even if that view is based on realising human sentiment was as real a thousand years ago as today. The real continuity though encompasses absolutely all the local music including outside influence as accepted reality, because that is what local people adopted and played over time. That there is lack of documentation or knowledge over large periods of that time does not mean we can just write in or write off at will, does not mean we can say "all that time was foreign influence or corrupted". No, it was Irish playing the music of the day as well as their own, as they pleased and to their own liking, and much of that outside of the notice of their contemporary higher society, which was often of foreign origin. I don't know, maybe it is better left to the imagination, maybe the Irish have a deep sense of what I am talking about and don't need any explaning, or would resent the attention even. I just see a large gap between what is often presented and what is omitted, and to an outsider it just seems to sideline centuries of positive Irish cultural and social reality, just as forms of 19th century presentation did.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Here's another rabbit hole for you to explore:
History of Irish music-Grattan Flood

Handle with care. :poke:
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by GreenWood »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:09 am Here's another rabbit hole for you to explore:
History of Irish music-Grattan Flood

Handle with care. :poke:
Thanks Mr. Gumby.

The open windows count that I had carefully manicured to under forty yesterday is now headed towards a hundred again, with title themes such as Nokter the Stammerer and Early Monastic Churches of Ireland. I had come across your link previously and was not sure how to approach it, and in my usual circumspect manner am now reading about how a bitter wind means no Vikings today.

Have pity on poor fishermen on a night like this.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Found the following sitting in the dark recesses of my hard drive:

The simple-system flute
in Irish traditional music
By Samuel Colin Hamilton

from Pan journal, published by the BFS, september 2007.

May be worth looking up, although It doesn't mention anything much hat hasn't been mentioned here before but it will provide you with an overview of what is known.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by bigsciota »

Grattan Flood is a great read, and he deserves his reputation as one of the greatest writers of fiction Ireland ever produced.
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Re: The flute and Irish history

Post by GreenWood »

I will include that Hamy Hamilton pdf link Mr. Gumby, it is interesting and why not note down relevant links...the way I understand it is that anyone searching on chiff for flute history might land on this discussion and save a lot of time otherwise searching for articles, by finding most here.


https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... ournal.pdf


It's interesting though Bigsciota, he does actually catch some enthusiasm for a difficult topic, but it is more like a history that happened to happen around music...and with historical accounts being much open to interpretation.

Anyway, I was noting down my impressions as I read through it, so far....



I'm up to about 1000 AD with William H. Grattan Flood now, and just jot down my impressions. I had avoided reading it fully for two reasons. The first being the focus seeming to be on there being an authenticity to early Irish music, which I don't question, if only for lack of any evidence otherwise. Secondly the means of explaining the view are long and not backed by detailed methodological example...of more use to wider history than to "what music would you hear ambling around 10th century Ireland" maybe . The examples given show a flow between original musical styles, i.e. in principal towards religious, and give credit to Irish being innovators. Undoubtedly, but what extent of interchange of ideas occurred is still unfathomable. As I am interested in the broader picture, and at lay level, or otherwise very thorough, from several pages really I come away with a single paragraph like:

In early medieval Ireland music was recorded as very common and distinct in style and origin [references ], with [instruments] noted in use. Most documentation comes from clerical records and religious works, with Ireland recorded as being both a center of monastic learning and a related source of highly regarded liturgical musicians abroad [ various references].

Apart that I would add:

The music and custom outside of that more official or recorded setting is little documented or understood, it includes [references], and would probably include [different settings]. The played share of music of any style or source is not known.


That is all I feel sure to deduce from his presentation in terms of a wider picture of music at the time, and with simplest of references included it might be two paragraphs instead of one. Credible reconstruction of earlier music or scales from later, or say religious, works is fraught with difficulty. In other words the actual music of the time will remain either inaccessible or only a not very representative limited example. It is good to read the work fully though because just parsing out small credibly factual detail here and there in it adds to understanding.

....will continue reading...........

1000 to 1200

Says music tradition was oral and no properly translatable folk tunes exist before 1200 or slightly earlier. The Welsh learnt from the Irish, the Scots similarly even though they were Irish (?). Again no great account of music in society, mentions bardic music becoming more formed in Wales at least, and many musicians present at specific competitive gatherings.

Up to 1400

Focuses on the harp mainly, mostly the history it was part of up until that date.


Up to 1500

Still more about history related to music than any great description of music of that time.


1200 to 1500

Anglo influence, a first few recorded tune mentions but mostly history related to music.


Might as well finish reading it....there might be a plot to it...
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