Regarding the low d Note

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Ben Shaffer
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Regarding the low d Note

Post by Ben Shaffer »

So some Flutes have a very nice strong low D note and then other Flutes have a weak Low D Note. On a keyless Flute just what is it that determines why this is so? I know there are a number of variables. Pratton vs RR,Bore size, shape, Finger holes, distance between the finger Holes,distance of the center of the embouchure to the Cork, Flute length, short foot vs Long Foot, the type of wood and weight, Blackwood , rosewood, boxwood, mopane,etc, and then the Player him or herself.
You can even see this difference in the same model Flute by the same maker.
Is one of these variables the big determinant or all?
Finally can a Flute with a weak Low D be improved to become a Flute with a strong Low D?
Thoughts? :-?
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Terry McGee
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Re: Regarding the low d Note

Post by Terry McGee »

Oooh, a big question, Ben, and it would be good to tease out all the nuances. But cutting directly to one of your key questions: "Is one of these variables the big determinant or all?"

I'd say all of the above, and probably some more (and we should tease them out). And for good reason. We are probably tempted to think of our bottom note as the basis for all that follows as we go up the scale. But a helpful way to look at it is that it is not the basis of anything, it's really the bottom end of the food chain. The low D is affected by every weakness or failing above it. The misplaced stopper, the slight imperfection in the embouchure cut, that invisible hairline crack in the barrel, roughness of the bore, weakness of the walls, porosity of the timber, steps in the bore at joints (whether from new or acquired by later distortion), the sum of all the tapering, and how well the "perfect" venting at the end of the flute is matched to the very imperfect venting of the notes further up the tube.

I think there may be some perception issues at play here too. We WANT the low note to sound like the basis for what follows. And while we might not be too concerned about a slightly flat F# or a slightly sharp Cnat, a low D that tends a little sharp compared to A or the 2nd octave D can make the low note seem weak. Possibly for good technical reasons - it's perhaps not enjoying the harmonic support it should be getting. Again, we need to remember it's at the bottom end of the food chain, dependent upon support from above.

Now that all might seem like a bleak assessment, but we know that many (most?) flutes do manage to tick all those boxes and come away with a good strong low note. So we need to find ways to separate out the non-issues from the possible issues. Substitution can be a powerful tool. If you have a head from a known good flute that can be inveigled into fitting this flute that could rule out head-related issues like embouchure cut. An RTTA chart could alert us to tuning anomalies that need investigation. Careful suck and blow tests can identify cracks.

And returning to your final question: "Finally can a Flute with a weak Low D be improved to become a Flute with a strong Low D?", I'd say only if we can find out what's causing the weakness and find ways to fix them. But we won't find without looking!
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Terry McGee
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Re: Regarding the low d Note

Post by Terry McGee »

So, I threatened that there were a number of nuances. Picking one...

Ben mentioned: Pratton vs RR,Bore size, shape....

Let's extend that to Pratten vs Rudall vs GLP (Grey Larsen Preferred). We could generalise that by renaming them Perfected era flutes, Improved era flutes, and Classical era flutes (which would bring in other small bore, small hole flutes such as French flutes and the German flutes we see were so common in the early Irish flute days). We expect Pratten's large bore and holes will produce an impressive body of tone, and in general it does. But I sometimes think this works against the flute's low notes. It's harder for it to live up to the trend set up by the body notes. We hear the "end of the food chain" at work.

Switching to the other extreme, the classical era flutes like the GLP, they certainly are much quieter in the body notes. But then the bottom note can come as a surprise. It is clearly the best vented of all the notes, and quite jumps out at you.

And in the middle we find the Improved Era flutes, starting with Nicholsons, but perhaps exemplified by Rudalls. A bore intermediate between the narrow Classical bore GLP and the big bore Pratten. A lot more volume on the body notes than the GLP, and perhaps in better balance with the low D than either of the outsiders?
Ben Shaffer
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Re: Regarding the low d Note

Post by Ben Shaffer »

Hi Terry, Excellent insights. Perhaps we could look at a Flute with an amazingly strong low D and see if there are any features that would account for a strong low D. Ive got one of those and its labeled a Sweetheart Flute, but let me stop right there because it was actually made by Ralph's Apprentice Joseph Marneaux and its unlike any Flute that Ralph made. Its got very good volume overall and is easy to play. And like I said its got a very strong low D that is also easy to play to get that strong note
Looking at the Flute the features for the most part things look pretty standard. It's made of Rosewood, finger hole placement pretty much the same as other Maker's D Flutes. Its a short length Flute, so nothing there that would make or break a strong low d. The center of the embouchure to cork distance is 18 mm , again pretty standard The bore is fairly smooth and the top part of the lower section measures 16 mm, The slide if you would call it that is all wood and is similar to to Terry's MDT, who I believe was the the first to make that style. The 5th finger hole is 10mm, so I believe somewhat large. The embouchure is undercut
Hold it a minute though there are 2 things about this Flute that might be different from most other Flutes. :poke:
1. Its got a cutaway on the leeward side of the embouchure,perhaps more volume?
2. The Embouchure cut is 13mm long by 11mm high, thats quite a good size embouchure. So could this embouchure size account for th strong low D? The caveat though would be the many Flutes out there with smaller embouchures that non the less have a strong low D but I know there are many out there with Flutes with smaller embouchure that still have a strong low D
PS I should mention I bought this Flute from the Irish Flute store a number of months ago. I saw on the site that the Flute was labelled to be a Sweetheart, but clearly looking at the Flute I could see it was not like any early Sweetheart Flutes. I bought the Flute and at that time it had a smaller Embouchure and no cutaway. The volume was good but not great. I knew Jos who actually made the Flute now had his own Company called Music Morneaux. I sent the Flute to him and he enlarged the embouchure dramatically and also put a cutaway on it. That improved the Volume dramatically with a very strong low D. Unfortunately my memory is not good in terms of the low D prior to the embouchure enlargement
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Terry McGee
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Re: Regarding the low d Note

Post by Terry McGee »

Ben Shaffer wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:17 amHi Terry, Excellent insights. Perhaps we could look at a Flute with an amazingly strong low D and see if there are any features that would account for a strong low D. Ive got one of those and its labeled a Sweetheart Flute, but let me stop right there because it was actually made by Ralph's Apprentice Joseph Marneaux and its unlike any Flute that Ralph made. Its got very good volume overall and is easy to play. And like I said its got a very strong low D that is also easy to play to get that strong note
Hmmm, Ben, really good idea to look at the opposite extreme, a flute with a strong low D. Come at the problem from both ends.
Looking at the Flute the features for the most part things look pretty standard. It's made of Rosewood, finger hole placement pretty much the same as other Maker's D Flutes. Its a short length Flute, so nothing there that would make or break a strong low d.
By which I interpret it has a Short D foot (possibly integral but that is of no import) rather than a C or Long D foot. So looks more Baroque than later flutes.
The center of the embouchure to cork distance is 18 mm , again pretty standard The bore is fairly smooth and the top part of the lower section measures 16 mm, The slide if you would call it that is all wood and is similar to to Terry's MDT, who I believe was the the first to make that style. The 5th finger hole is 10mm, so I believe somewhat large.
10mm for hole 5 of a Pratten is actually a bit small. My original is closer to 11mm. But perhaps he's compensating with more undercutting, which is what I do.
The embouchure is undercut
Hold it a minute though there are 2 things about this Flute that might be different from most other Flutes. :poke:
1. Its got a cutaway on the leeward side of the embouchure,perhaps more volume?
Yes, I do that. It does free up the tone. Probably of aerodynamic assistance rather than acoustic. But hey, we'll take any help on offer!
2. The Embouchure cut is 13mm long by 11mm high, thats quite a good size embouchure. So could this embouchure size account for th strong low D? The caveat though would be the many Flutes out there with smaller embouchures that non the less have a strong low D but I know there are many out there with Flutes with smaller embouchure that still have a strong low D
It probably is of assistance, but might prove a little taxing for some players. My Prattens original measures 12.3 by 10.8, which is already large by 19th century standards.
PS I should mention I bought this Flute from the Irish Flute store a number of months ago. I saw on the site that the Flute was labelled to be a Sweetheart, but clearly looking at the Flute I could see it was not like any early Sweetheart Flutes. I bought the Flute and at that time it had a smaller Embouchure and no cutaway. The volume was good but not great. I knew Jos who actually made the Flute now had his own Company called Music Morneaux. I sent the Flute to him and he enlarged the embouchure dramatically and also put a cutaway on it. That improved the Volume dramatically with a very strong low D. Unfortunately my memory is not good in terms of the low D prior to the embouchure enlargement
Well it sounds like a good outcome from your perspective. And we always need to keep in mind that what suits one player won't suit another! This is a tricky game!
Ben Shaffer
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Re: Regarding the low d Note

Post by Ben Shaffer »

Interesting point about the size of the embouchure being more taxing. I find a big embouchure to be pretty easy, but there again everyone is different I think having played the GH Bagpipes it makes playing most Flutes a Cakewalk :D
I think the volume of a Flute will go up dramatically with a strong Player, who also knows how to position the embouchure to his lip for any given Flute
We have one Player here in NC that really is a strong blower and gets a lot out of his Copeland Flute, I'll mention his name ,its Tim Smith. Now he is or was a trumpet Player and I thing that can make you a stronger Player on the Flute.
You know I think most Flutes have a pretty good low D. And then there are some that are weaker and others that are very strong.
One thing I don't think we touched on was oiling the Bore. The volume of my Flutes seem to go up quite a bit after Oiling
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Re: Regarding the low d Note

Post by GreenWood »

I will have a go at the question Ben, only from where any observation so far seems to point me. All that Terry said is relevant I think.

I made three very similar flutes, but each with slightly different bore diameter, 0.5mm between each. The narrowest has a resonant but quiet D, the middle one has a very strong resonant D, the widest bore has a loud but not resonant D.
I have another flute the diameter of the narrowest, and that did have a strong resonant bass note, until I shortened it slightly to tune it.
Another very wide bore flute has a strong resonant bass.
A Rudall style flute became less strong on bass when narrowed.
A pratten style one was more resonant.

From all of that there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason, but my impression is that the strength of the bass note is most determined by a resonance that itself forms as interaction between bore dimension/length and embouchure property, where a jump to second octave is also late.

A way of searching this out might be to take a simple cylindrical bore without toneholes and shortening it a mm or two at a time, and to see if a pattern of strength emerges. That pattern would depend to some extent on flute embouchure, so the picture would be much more complex applied in reality, especially given all other configuration possible.

What came to mind also is a description of how organ pipes are set up. There the distance between lip and inlet channel of air is said very important to obtain a deep sound, because the edgetone frequency set up in that gap (which powers the sound of the pipe) has to be just right so as not to jump octave but instead increase the pipe volume with air quantity. This is one thing I notice a lot so far on flutes, that if you set own embouchure for strong bass, the second octave is often more difficult, and vice versa. So changing lip shape (and so distance) while playing is one way around this, or else some will roll the flute slightly for higher notes, etc. Clearly most flutes can be played just straight, but often that does not give an optimum of sound. Added to that, is that the small adjustments mentioned will change the pitch slightly, sometimes in a way that brings straight blown notes better into tune, sometimes the opposite. So there is a lot of fun to be had with all of this (wry smile), but I think eventually players find their own style or way around it all and choose a flute (or flutes) best suited to their own way or learning of embouchure.

Exploring the different kinds of sound available or possible can be quite fascinating or amusing if approached without any particular objective. Trying to bring certain different qualities together with any particular flute as well can be entertaining in a way also (the word "trying" being the denominator, the results being often unexpectedly different)
ChrisCracknell
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Re: Regarding the low d Note

Post by ChrisCracknell »

One other thing to consider is that we often hold the flute differently for the low D than for the other notes. I noticed with my playing that everything was strong except the low D. In my case it turned out that removing the right pinky from the EFlat key when playing D was shifting a major element of my support for the flute. And that meant I was no longer blowing in the hole the same way. Fixing the stability of the flute (more right thumb and left index finger pressure all the time...) fixed the tone. And it is now of the same character as all the other tones on this excellent flute.
As a side effect, because I was venting the EFlat on my keyed flutes, I had developed the habit of using the RH Pinky the same way even on a keyless. With the same regrettable effect on low D.
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