To Vent or Not To Vent....Eb

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est
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Tell us something.: Kind of a beginner with a keyless flute and an antique wooden flute with keys. Used to play accordion back some time ago, but trying to focus on the flute, until I can get some degree of command over it.

To Vent or Not To Vent....Eb

Post by est »

So, I have a nice 6 key wooden flute that I've been playing for a bit more than a year, focussing largely on playing Irish Traditional. I'm still learning to play the flute and have no teacher, so this is entirely me stumbling around in the dark :)

A few months back, I began putting serious effort into learning to play some Bach Sonatas, since they were forcing me to work on my 3rd register as well as really learn the keys. During an earlier post here at C&F, someone asked if I was venting the Eb, which I had not been doing. Adding that in has taken a lot of work, but really has made Bach much, much easier. But...what about my Irish playing?

I've been working fairly intensely on venting the Eb in my Irish tunes, but there are just some songs that are a real chore that get seriously muddled (think alterating between A / D and F#/ D....lots of Eb ups and downs in almost finger twisty fashion!)

I happened to have youtube playing a mix this afternoon, most of which was Irish tunes and Michael McGoldrick came up and I watched his fingers trying to decide if he was venting...and then I noticed his Eb key was actually opposite his fingers entirely! Then I searched for Shannon Heaton and it doesn't look like she is either (though, her Eb key certainly looked like she could use it if she needed it)...

So, I'm wondering if my efforts to iron out those wrinkles with some of the tougher spots is a waste of time and I should only worry about venting when I'm learning a tune that actually needs that Eb (such as Mr Bach's works).

Any suggestions?
Tonehole
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Re: To Vent or Not To Vent....Eb

Post by Tonehole »

nice going. Big fan of playing Bach solo flute sonatas on simple system too.

Baroque traverso players will vent for the Eflat notes; this is what the Bach flute sonatas were written for. As mere mortals on simple system flute, we should vent the Eflat too :)

A vented Eflat note is weak already on the simple system flute - unless played on a Siccama type keyed simple system flute. Can't imagine how awful an unvented Eflat note would sound - it would be like needing to bypass the note quickly instead of giving the Eflat note its fullness. Hooray for vented notes :)
est
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Re: To Vent or Not To Vent....Eb

Post by est »

So, when I say Vent the Eb, I mean letting my pinky rest with the Eb key down on notes that aren't affected, such as F# and above (E is affected on one register and less so in the other..so I may or may not leave the Eb key depressed for an E...obviously the D doesn't vent well on the Eb... :)

The only real gotcha for me with this particular Bach tune is the 3rd register E....since that Eb key does make it noticeably sharp. So, there are times when I jump from high E to a 2rd G or C or something and I feel like I'm going to drop my flute...eek! But, those are getting more stable as I work the fingers more.
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Re: To Vent or Not To Vent....Eb

Post by Tonehole »

Oh ...not sure I see :lol: Would letting the Fnatural open while playing Eflat not still sound like Fnatural skewed? Perhaps it sounds like an attempt to correct the intonation of a vintage flute (or less well designed one)which doesn't play equal temperament or in tune for its scale but maybe I've misunderstood!

In the Partita, the 3rd octave register Eflat is required in the first movement - there are alternate fingerings for different simple system flutes. I've never found any one fingering works across all the different simple systems which makes for rather quirky playing. Always having to remember which fingering to use for each specific flute! Low first octave is more straightfoward for Eflat ...
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Re: To Vent or Not To Vent....Eb

Post by Flutern »

Modern Irish flutes, unlike 19th century simple system flutes, do not need venting in the first two octaves. It's only needed for some notes in the 3rd octave. Check Tom Aebi's fingering charts on his new website: https://wooden-flute.com :)
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Flutern
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Location: Sherbrooke, Quebec

Re: To Vent or Not To Vent....Eb

Post by Flutern »

Tonehole wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:19 pm A vented Eflat note is weak already on the simple system flute - unless played on a Siccama type keyed simple system flute. Can't imagine how awful an unvented Eflat note would sound - it would be like needing to bypass the note quickly instead of giving the Eflat note its fullness. Hooray for vented notes :)
What do you mean by "unvented Eb"? Are you talking about venting E natural, which typically results in a clearer but sharp E.
Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.
est
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Tell us something.: Kind of a beginner with a keyless flute and an antique wooden flute with keys. Used to play accordion back some time ago, but trying to focus on the flute, until I can get some degree of command over it.

Re: To Vent or Not To Vent....Eb

Post by est »

Flutern wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:20 pm Modern Irish flutes, unlike 19th century simple system flutes, do not need venting in the first two octaves. It's only needed for some notes in the 3rd octave. Check Tom Aebi's fingering charts on his new website: https://wooden-flute.com :)
My use of the Eb isn't to correct pitch. For most of the notes, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. The E in the first 2 octaves does have some different color with the Eb key. The benefit I'm finding from using it with the Bach is that it makes the passages that use an actual Eb much easier. And the tricky phrases around D aren't nearly as problemattic as in the Irish tunes...of course, I'm also playing bach at a moderate speed, but some of the irish stuff I can play somewhat briskly. So, it might just be that I'm not playing bach fast enough to have trouble :O
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Re: To Vent or Not To Vent....Eb

Post by tstermitz »

I've noticed that most Irish musicians don't use the Eb key, and they'll even turn out the foot joint. It makes sense to move as few fingers as possible. I believe that classical flute players are already used to Eb, so don't think twice about using it.

Personally, I found that it wasn't TOO difficult to incorporate Eb and play it at speed, aside from some obvious problems (C or C# to D). E rolls are an issue, and on my favorite flute, the Eb key is so important to getting a good, resonant tone, that I use the Eb key even there - I did not have the necessary agility for that at first!

Most of the flutes I've played are 19th century antiques. They ALL benefit a little or a lot by using the Eb key. On most of them it modifies the pitch slightly or not-at-all, but on all of them it improves the volume, resonance, or quality of the tone. And, I find that the Eb is key is necessary for some 3rd register notes, but can't be used on F, F#, G.

Other notes sometimes benefit or require venting of various keys. But, I didn't necessarily notice this benefit when I was less experienced, or playing with less push or a lower volume. I have sometimes found when I'm pushing a note trying for more volume or power the vent makes a big difference.

One other place I notice an effect is when I play the harmonics of the note. For example the F# note is fine on harmonics 0, 1, 2, but then H3 barely sounds. This may be a clue to how or why the venting improves the quality and volume while not affecting the pitch.
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