Left wrist

[jim stone]

After 20 years playing two or three hours a day, my left wrist is beginning to hurt. Icing, resting.... I'm going to see a physical therapist, this isn't a call for medical advice. But perhaps experienced people can give me some flute-advice. My left wrist isn't much bent in holding the flute (played righty with a classical grip) but it occurs to me it might be helpful to straighten it more. Obviously lots of people are playing with a significant bend (I remember Mike Rafferty) but some have the wrist nearly straight--quite graceful. But I don't know quite how they do it. I'm not sure where the left thumb is supposed to go (I have usually kept it close to the Bb key but this seems to bend the wrist some). Also I've noticed that folks playing Boehm flutes seem to have the left wrist straight or straighter than folks playing simple system and wonder if the Bohm set up facilitates a straighter wrist. Anyhow I would welcome suggestions on how to position the left wrist/hand so that the wrist is straighter.

(If you check frankie gavin at 1:20, that's what I have in mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drRqdb6Gfnk)

[Juan Pablo Plata]

Hi! I´ll speak from my experience:

1. Stop playing NOW, until you feel 100% ok again. Pain could last weeks, even months (hopefully not!).
2. Stop using mouse/keyboard NOW.
3. Sleep well, cold-heat-cold (in that order), relax, go walk, drink water and eat healthy food.
4. After the pain phase, strengthening your arms is a must. Calmly.
5. When the time comes, your wrists MUST be totally straight when playing, neck, shoulder and fingers totally relaxed, in that order. Use a mirror and play slowly.
6. Warm up before playing, stretch after (full body!).

After I developed tendonitis 22 years ago, it never disapeared, but all of this helped A LOT. After some hiatus of years without playing (a decade, really), I could play again, slow and carefully. I had a very severe injury in both forearms caused by tension and a bent left wrist while playing, so trust my words.

[jim stone]

Thank you! More anybody?

[david_h]

I went back to whistle for almost 6 moths until I was sure my wrist had recovered. Injury caused, I think, by continuing to play when some discomfort started - I had a load of tunes to learn for a short notice workshop opportunity.

On starting again I worked on the basis that the distance between my lips and three fingertips was fixed but there were a lot of joints between them and, with multiple mirrors, started exploring the options. Photos of other players helped - but the length of my bones, or yours, between those joints probably isn't the same as Frankie Gavin's or anyone else's.

I don't think the keys on a Boehm flute are as far apart as the holes on most simple system flutes.

[fatmac]

Boehm flute keys are about an inch apart, keyless are considerably more, & not evenly spaced, if you don't use the 'pipers grip', I suggest looking in to adopting a version of it to help keep the wrist straighter.

[jim stone]

Yes, I shifted my grip to a piper's grip and resting the flute, not on my left knuckle but on the left thumb which is on the barrel. This straightens the wrist though I'm not sure what is going to happen to my thumb! Meanwhile if I play, even in this new position, I'm getting into a stinging pain on the back of my hand. Got to stop entirely, as advised. One thing I would like to know is how to use the old classical grip and straighten my wrist more too. Gavin seems able. Thanks, everybody.

[Mr.Gumby]

Patsy Hanly is someone who always strikes me as having a relaxed wrist position. Mind you he has very large hands.

I will see if I can fig out a few pics tomorrow that show what I mean.

[Nanohedron]

One thing I would like to know is how to use the old classical grip and straighten my wrist more too. Gavin seems able.

If we look at Gavin's left wrist at around 0:36, 1:55, and also near the end of the vid, there is a slight bend in his wrist, but I would venture it's not enough to cause strain; it's a natural, undemanding position. It isn't a trick of the eye due to the greater width of the palm relative to the wrist. I would also point out that his grip there isn't a classical grip à la Rockstro, but modified, using the thumb to support the flute; here he places the thumb underneath the hand.

I don't know how my own experience can speak to Gavin's method, as I was a total piper's gripper left and right, and my left thumb extended toward the flute's head (more in the fashion of Nugent), but I can say that for me flute stability was what kept me from strain; a stable flute allowed the fingers to move freely and without effort (so far as skill permitted). How the hands accomplished this was mainly a matter of alternating the responsibility, if you will, and it was very subtle and fleeting; the main point is that the left hand didn't do all the stabilizing work. That, I think, would be a sure recipe for hand problems.

I don't know if I'm covering old and familiar ground for you, Jim, but I thought I'd put in my 2¢.

I left off fluting not because of that, but because of a struggle with neuropathy and a bad right shoulder. Now I'm learning whistle (there's an about-face for you), and the physical aspects are very different. I'm okay with that, because for me it's far less demanding on the hands. Still have the harp going, but winds are what I know, so no reason for me to throw the baby out with the bath water. I intend mainly to charm the local fauna, and have promised not to eat them.

[jim stone]

Thanks, Nano. Sorry to hear about these difficulties. Yes, I see the slight bend in Gavin's wrist/hand. I now have an appt with an Occupational Therapist (they are the PTs who do hands and arms) in about two weeks.

[Nanohedron]

I now have an appt with an Occupational Therapist (they are the PTs who do hands and arms) in about two weeks.

That sounds good.

[tstermitz]

Physical pain at one place is often caused by issues removed from the specific location.

In this case, muscle tension, strain or injury further up the arm, shoulder or neck may impact tendon or muscle pain in the wrist or hand. OTs are sometimes better at ergonomic issues than PTs because they look up the fascia train or at ergonomic problems.

Notice what happens if you push your wrist down, or pull it back. What happens if you twist your entire head, arms and/or shoulders more to the left or right? Elbows down or up?

I think piper's hold on the left hand might straighten your arm-wrist joint. I don't use that hold, but I recall having a sore wrist in my earlier days that eased as my hands became used to the position. As they became more relaxed, my wrists became noticeably straighter.

Age isn't recommended for young people.

[Nanohedron]

Age isn't recommended for young people.

Pfft. As if they'll listen...

[Conical bore]

I don't know how my own experience can speak to Gavin's method, as I was a total piper's gripper left and right, and my left thumb extended toward the flute's head (more in the fashion of Nugent), but I can say that for me flute stability was what kept me from strain; a stable flute allowed the fingers to move freely and without effort (so far as skill permitted). How the hands accomplished this was mainly a matter of alternating the responsibility, if you will, and it was very subtle and fleeting; the main point is that the left hand didn't do all the stabilizing work. That, I think, would be a sure recipe for hand problems.

I don't know if my experience will help either, but I fully support that idea of removing as much support from the left hand as possible while stabilizing the flute.

For me, the trick that finally got my flute stabilized (as a right-handed player) was right hand pressure from the tip of my thumb against the side of the flute. It makes the left hand more of a passive pivot point between the right hand thumb pressure and the flute resting against my chin. It doesn't feel like I'm holding up the flute with my left hand at all.

It involved a sacrifice -- I normally have a medium-length thumb nail on my right hand for playing fingerstyle guitar, but that didn't make a solid contact. So I had to trim the nail very short, leaving only the fleshy tip to make contact with the side of the flute. It was worth it though for a more solid flute hold. I can always use a thumbpick for guitar.

[ryarbrough]

This is clearly an issue that a lot of us have experienced.

After seeing my wife deal with repetitive motion injuries, when my left wrist pain started (using a Gavin-type grip on a Rudal-type flute), I knew I had to straighten my wrist. Problem was, I couldn't keep my left thumb on the flute with a straight wrist. So I learned to play with my left thumb completely off the flute. The thumb is available for Bb with a stretch, but I rarely use that key. Left wrist pain gone, never to return.

Then I moved to a large Pratten-style flute. It sounded great, but the shooting back-of-the-hand pain on my right hand started soon after, followed by my left hand. The solution? A smaller flute, of course. I tried a Rudal. Still too big. Then I purchased a Hawke-type flute from Copley and Boegli. Just right. Feels great and all hand issues resolved. The difference in size is just a few mm, but it made all the difference for me. BTW, I now put the left thumb on the flute sometimes, off sometimes, but I definitely do not have to use my left thumb to support the flute and do not grip the flute with my left hand.

[jim stone]

Interesting. I'm going through similar experiences. When I use classical grip, I leave my left thumb off the flute, often, because it helps keep my wrist straight. Your post persuades me I'm not daft.