Top up breathing

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john
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Top up breathing

Post by john »

When you only have time for a quick breath do you push out the remaining air or are you just adding to whatever breath is left? I think it's the latter. How to get a good slug of oxygen when you've not time to take a full breath is a task in itself. When you have time for a deep breath it seems to be natural to push out the air first in order to get a full intake. I'd like to understand this better should anyone be inclined to offer their own approach. Thanks.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by Loren »

No need to exhale prior to taking on more O2, no matter the current amount of air currently in your lungs. Just quickly inhale when ever it makes the most sense for phrasing and rhythm purposes, or whenever you absolutely must, if you missed a better (more musical) spot :wink:
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by GreenWood »

I don't know if this advice will be any use at all. From much scuba, you learn to never hold your breath. So breathing isn't really breathing as such, it is like being immersed or bathed in air and you just take in air as needed. When it comes to flute, this transforms into just taking in air when not exhaling (blowing) if needed (which it usually is). It's a bit of an unusual way of viewing it, but basically it adds up to as Loren says.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by Conical bore »

Never exhale before taking a breath, that's a waste of expression. Find the best points to take a breath within a tune, and realize that those breathing points will shift as you built up tempo to full dance tempos.

I'm really sloppy about working on my breathing, getting the diaphragm involved, all that. So take this with a grain of salt, but what I've found over the years is that the best way to improve my air supply is working on my embouchure. When you finally have a nice tight, controlled embouchure, many of the breathing issues I thought I would never master just magically went away. I was wasting air with an inefficient embouchure.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by david_h »

I guess we are all different but I find breathing is about maintaining controlled blowing rather than adequate gas exchange. When starting out my problem was the opposite - hyperventilation - which is why we see advice for beginners to sit rather than stand. If I force exhalle before breathing in its because my body tells me I need to, but since I don't leap around when playing flute it's never then, and if I needed to I would wonder if something was wrong.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by RudallCarte6950 »

No need to exhale existing lung air.
Develop a focused embouchure. ( Put your lips together and breath out. This will lift the top lip off the lower. That's ALL the opening needed )
Don't "blow".... playing flute only needs the same air exhalation as when speaking, no blowing needed to sound the flute.

Pick spots every 2-3 bars or when suits the phrase to breath , breath often, drop a note to do so.

This efficient embouchure, non-blowing, proactive (supported ) breathing is how it becomes effortless

Sounds easier than it is :-)

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Re: Top up breathing

Post by rykirk »

I'll be contrarian here and say that a quick efficient exhale doesn't hurt and is sometimes necessary for long passages without breaks, especially solo. Repeatedly 'topping up' without fully exhaling you will eventually wind up out of breath with full lungs. Stale oxygen depleted air will build up so you feel 'full' and run out of room to top up but are still oxygen deprived. The problem is more pronounced on instruments with significant back pressure like reeds or brass where it isnt as easy to get rid of air, but it can happen on flute too. The exhale need not be dramatic, simply opening the corners of your mouth a bit and relaxing before inhaling is usually enough. But you certainly CANNOT top up indefinitely when playing a wind instrument.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by Loren »

rykirk wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:53 am Repeatedly 'topping up' without fully exhaling you will eventually wind up out of breath with full lungs.
False:
1. In the course of normal breathing humans rarely ever fully exhale, anyone who has had hydrostatic weighing done will be well aware of this. It’s actually rather challenging to fully exhale.

2. “Topping Up” without fully exhaling can’t possibly leave you out of breath, that makes no sense whatsoever, and is scientifically unsound. If you are playing your flute you are exhaling, if you “top off” you are inhaling, thus completing the cycle known as respiration, which by definition will not leave you either out of breath, or with constantly full lungs.

Stale oxygen depleted air will build up so you feel 'full' and run out of room to top up but are still oxygen deprived.
Again, False:

1. Oxygen depleted air will not build up in your lungs unless you completely hold your breath. We are playing a wind instrument and therefore constantly exchanging the air in the lungs. Full breaths are not required for sufficient exchange of oxygenated air to occur, unless perhaps you insist on playing the flute while running at say, lactate threshold or beyond.

3. Feeling full and being oxygen deprived….. one has nothing to do with the other, except in the case of breath holding.
But you certainly CANNOT top up indefinitely when playing a wind instrument.
False: As with the other things you’ve written, the science is totally against you on this point as well. I suspect most accomplished flute players, if asked, would disagree with you as well. I mean, every decent flute player I’ve heard asked has said they never play till they are out of breath, or even close to it.

Harmonica is the one wind instrument that I can think of where you absolutely MUST learn to expel excess air from the lungs due to the fact that notes are played on both the blow AND draw notes, hence you can have situations with too many draw notes in a row and not enough blow notes, leaving you in a situation where the lungs are full but you still have draw notes remaining to finish a phrase. But this also has nothing to do with satisfying the body’s need for oxygenation and PH balance.

Back to blow only instruments. I don’t doubt your experience of having the feelings of the things you describe, but that doesn’t mean your assessment fits the physiology, because honestly it doesn’t.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by rykirk »

I'm not gonna get into the details because you're clearly much more invested in this than I am and I'm short on time but

a) classical wind players train to relax and release air before inhaling a new breath. I studied horn and trumpet at a university music programme. It's also a common problem with oboes and other reed instruments where there is back pressure, people encounter it with practice chanters and pipes as well. Also a very common problem with people learning to circular breath on any instrument.

b) i dont care what instrument you are playing or if you're just sitting in a chair breathing. If you inhale MORE than you exhale you will eventually be full of stale air. It's less of a problem with flute and whistle because there is no back pressure and you can generally get rid of air without purposefully 'dumping' it and have a much more natural breathing pattern while practicing. But it can still happen. But of course it's better to think of it as maintaining a relaxed airway and releasing or letting the air out. When I say exhale I don't mean a dramatic puff or blow.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by Conical bore »

rykirk wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:01 pm a) classical wind players train to relax and release air before inhaling a new breath.
I'm having a hard time understanding where there would be room to exhale in the middle of a typical Irish reel with a steady string of notes at 112 bpm.

A great deal of this music was written by fiddlers, pipers, and free reed players, who don't have to deal with space between notes to take a breath. The music just isn't designed for it, like a Classical piece intended for wind instruments. It's hard enough sometimes to figure out what notes to drop out in order to take a quick breath. II think I'd go crazy if I had to figure out where to exhale too.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by rykirk »

Conical bore wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:37 pm
rykirk wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:01 pm a) classical wind players train to relax and release air before inhaling a new breath.
I'm having a hard time understanding where there would be room to exhale in the middle of a typical Irish reel with a steady string of notes at 112 bpm.
...
The music just isn't designed for it, like a Classical piece intended for wind instruments.
There are plenty of baroque solo pieces featuring long unbroken passages of fast 8th or 16th notes. Telemann, Bach, etc. They make it work.

Anyway, I'm not saying everyone NEEDS to make a big conscious effort to exhale. Presumably many of the flute players who say they don't just have a nice even breathing rhythm or are subconsciously letting a little extra air escape without realizing. Like I said it's much easier on an instrument like a flute. I just wanted to be devils advocate for the case that there is a time and place for exhaling before a fresh breath. Hyperventilation is a common learners problem with all wind instruments in my experience and learning to relax and let go of air is important if you want to play unbroken for more than a single tune or two. Hell I've even seen a soprano top-up breath herself into passing out during a recital.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by david_h »

rykirk wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:11 am Hyperventilation is a common learners problem with all wind instruments in my experience and learning to relax and let go of air is important if you want to play unbroken for more than a single tune or two.
I don't follow that. Hyperventilation is due to exchanging too much air so that the carbon dioxide concentration in the blood goes too low (what Loren said about controlling pH). Newbie flute players don't fall over because of lack of O2, they fall over because of lack of CO2.

Is there an online resource that covers this advice for windplayers needing to learn to breath out? I'm surprised that I have not seen it mentioned on this forum before.

On the practical side I have no problem leaking air through my nose when playing whistle, but don't do it much. I do it all the time when using a MIDI wind controller that uses no air. I don't recall having to do it on flute but I just tried and can do it no problem when playing second octave notes quietly - a bit more pressure than normal and not using much air. Other situations would need a some practice not to upset the playing.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by rykirk »

david_h wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:32 am
rykirk wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:11 am Hyperventilation is a common learners problem with all wind instruments in my experience and learning to relax and let go of air is important if you want to play unbroken for more than a single tune or two.
I don't follow that. Hyperventilation is due to exchanging too much air so that the carbon dioxide concentration in the blood goes too low (what Loren said about controlling pH). Newbie flute players don't fall over because of lack of O2, they fall over because of lack of CO2.

Is there an online resource that covers this advice for windplayers needing to learn to breath out? I'm surprised that I have not seen it mentioned on this forum before.

On the practical side I have no problem leaking air through my nose when playing whistle, but don't do it much. I do it all the time when using a MIDI wind controller that uses no air. I don't recall having to do it on flute but I just tried and can do it no problem when playing second octave notes quietly - a bit more pressure than normal and not using much air. Other situations would need a some practice not to upset the playing.
Sorry you're right, hyperventilation is the wrong medical term for what's happening here. Not sure what the correct term is as it's always just been taught to me as 'stale air'.


For some reason the forum isn't letting me post a link right now but just Google 'wind players stale air exhale' and many articles and online discussions will come up. You'll probably find mostly double reeds like oboe and brass discussed as the back pressure exacerbates the problem. But I've seen it happen to flute players and vocalists as well who forget to relax and release air. It can be extra problematic with circular breathing on any instrument.

Maybe 'exhale' is too strong a descriptor. Often the physical cue is more to do with dropping the jaw or opening the corners of the mouth and 'letting' the air escape rather than consciously exhaling from the lungs. But my point remains re. the original convo: no one can 'top up' indefinitely if they are breathing regularly and not exhaling as much as they inhale (which you often won't naturally, if you use proper deep breaths).
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by GreenWood »

There are two topics going on at the same time.

1. Having enough air stored to play a passage.

2. Breathing an adequate amount of air.


The first depends on instrument and length of passage, but topping up is good enough.

The second is intertwined with the first, because if you blow a minute amount of air for a long time you will need to take a breath before finishing exhaling. If you start with a fresh breathful of air (breathing out then in) you will be able to be blowing same all over. If you top up only before end of breath because needing to breathe, then gradually O2 will diminish and CO2 will increase, which is your "stale air" circumstance.

However I think that normally, unless the player is dancing around or something, and for flute at least, that just top up breathing is plenty good enough... a person breathes a lot less sat quietly than while playing I think... I tried to find figures and at rest it is 6l/min but for flute no exact figure given.. meaning we do not get short of 02 (or overcharged with C02 which is responsible for the urge to breathe) playing normally...we just use up all the air we have stored....or alternatively topping up refreshes enough air. On renaissance flute which uses little air I can sit for an hour playing without rest for example.

The flute apparently uses more air than most other instruments, so with some of those maybe technique is different. You will also sometimes hear an emphasis at end of passage in traditional music, but it is hard to tell if it is decision to phrase that way, or because of preparing for a breath.


Rykirk, (in lay terms) you cannot inhale more than you exhale :-) .

It is possibly also better to try to play until a slight feeling of needing to breathe, because that way you know you probably have your CO2 levels in order, and therefore your 02 levels in order. CO2 level is what urges you to breathe. That way you also take fuller breath at that point (for flute) ... but it is really a personal thing getting it all right...choosing where to breathe in a tune or adding where to...remembering to... sometimes there is no good space to so it is lots of top-ups and I think most players learn to top-up at every single opportunity just because a reserve of air is more comfortable. That is slightly contradictory to what I said at start of paragraph, but there it is just how I tend to space/remember any main breaths.

Ultimately all the explanation possible isn't going to teach anyone, just practice and eventually it should seem relaxed, comfortable and without great difficulty. It is slightly different from relaxed breathing, and slightly different from talking because timing is spaced in a more set way, but should eventually be as comfortable as either...the sense of tension is often related to running out of air to play, not a great need to breathe. Also, when you have expelled a lot of air new CO2 will rise faster as % so that probably comes into it as well . Those learning embouchure will find they need to pause for air more often because of using more air.


So that all works for just topping up breathing . Normally I find I am breathing more than I need to when playing flute though, and breath is as often for air as for breathing.

If you overbreath then O2 and CO2 aren't synchronised. It isn't just blackout from hyperventilation (basically a physical reaction to odd levels of CO2 and O2), but also not feeling a need to breathe because of a resulting long low CO2 level, even though 02 does then become low, that can occur . The latter of those doesn't seem common in flute playing (?) but it is a real danger while free diving, because the low CO2 from rapid breathing before dive means no urge to breathe even though O2 is low... and so danger of blackout. Normally we are close saturated with 02, so overbreathing only reduces the urge to breathe by eliminating C02, but does not much extend the dive (or flute playing) otherwise...which is why it is not recommended.

So, I think that playing flute puts anyone in touch with their breathing, makes them conscious of it, and teaches them a certain amount of how to manage it. It just a takes a while to learn and to integrate the different sensations to ones own pace and style (and vice versa).

Short version and should have written this first, flute players don't usually run short of air for breathing, for example I just tried taking a deep breath and holding that for thirty second intervals (a new deep breath after each), for me that is not stressful... and with gently blowing out also... half a minute of non stop gentle or focused playing is about what will empty a person of air, and less if loud etc. Everyone is different though, so that's just my tuppence for whatever it is worth.
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Re: Top up breathing

Post by david_h »

GreenWood wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:27 pm So, I think that playing flute puts anyone in touch with their breathing, makes them conscious of it, and teaches them a certain amount of how to manage it. It just a takes a while to learn and to integrate the different sensations to ones own pace and style (and vice versa).
Well said (IMO).
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