Chiff and Fipple Forums

It takes ages to come across this sort of information, so it would seem a shame not to write it down and share it. This is the oldest "definitely a wooden flute" found in Europe so far, as far as I know. It is an unusual topic to research, with not much compiled...there is not much evidence left of early wooden flutes.



a. is from the pdf linked below, courtesy G.S. Schöble


b. is reproductions for sale.

c. and bottom picture is from Sri Lanka 1800s from British museum. I include the last because it is uncannily similar in designs and Sri Lankans are descended from Indo Europeans it would seem. Maybe people just scratch designs like that when given the opportunity though ?


The original was found in a lake that is now in Germany, from about 1000 BC. Both are end blown I think...or not , my German is not that good to understand

https://www.pfahlbauten.de/wp-content/u ... ekreis.pdf

which is on the find and reproducing it. I expect wooden flutes of some kind were being used much earlier also, but just did not last.

The bone ones survived better. Search for the ones found in the Wood Quay excavation in Dublin. Or the one from Germany.

There are no tone holes, is that right, just the embouchure hole? I wonder if this would qualify as a musical instrument in that case. Maybe more of a signaling device like a modern referee's whistle?

GreenWood wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:52 am... Sri Lankans are descended from Indo Europeans it would seem.

That would be largely true of the ethnic Sinhalese and their language, but - not to nitpick - remember that Sri Lanka has a number of long-established minorities, the largest of which would be the Tamils, who are Dravidian - definitely not an Indo-European group. It would be hard to draw accurate flute assumptions on the basis of majority ethnicity alone in a land where, like India too, cross-cultural borrowings would not be unusual, and the question is: From whom? Same goes for decorative patterning: you might find something similar anywhere in the world at given times. The makers of such an old flute may well have predated Indo-European influence, which is all the more likely since said flute is something like 500 years older than that, according to present linguistic models. Inconclusive at that time scale, perhaps, but it counsels caution in making speculative cultural attributions.

Conical bore wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:16 pm There are no tone holes, is that right, just the embouchure hole? I wonder if this would qualify as a musical instrument in that case. Maybe more of a signaling device like a modern referee's whistle?

There's one tonehole. It's an end-blown (I believe notched?) flute.

There is a nice collection of information on flute history here:

https://www.flutopedia.com/flute_timeline.htm

Can't wait till it's listed on ebay!

Nanohedron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:34 pm There's one tonehole. It's an end-blown (I believe notched?) flute.

Hmmm... I'm still wondering if it's something we'd consider a musical instrument if it can only hit two pitched notes. To me that sounds like it might be something like a bird call, or some other signaling device. There is a much older history of bone flutes with multiple tone holes suggesting a musical intent.

Then again, who am I to judge what ancient cultures might consider music.

Hey, Conical. Do I have to remind you about "Johnny One Note"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mUZSUx ... l=MichaelC.

Conical bore wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:24 pm

Nanohedron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:34 pm There's one tonehole. It's an end-blown (I believe notched?) flute.

Hmmm... I'm still wondering if it's something we'd consider a musical instrument if it can only hit two pitched notes. To me that sounds like it might be something like a bird call, or some other signaling device. There is a much older history of bone flutes with multiple tone holes suggesting a musical intent.

Then again, who am I to judge what ancient cultures might consider music.

*cough* overtones.

ecadre wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:49 am *cough* overtones.

Yeah, but if you only have two notes to start with, there aren't going to be many overtones to play with!

With only two positions on my Iberian three-hole flute (say o-o-o and o-o-x, right being the thumb) I can get a handful of notes. I don't see why a one-hole flute couldn't get close to a full pentatonic scale.

Terry McGee wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:34 am

ecadre wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:49 am *cough* overtones.

Yeah, but if you only have two notes to start with, there aren't going to be many overtones to play with!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_trumpet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone_flute

But ... these are long, narrow-bore instruments. The original flute doesn't look suitable for as many overtones.

On my tiny Generation G whistle I can get eight distinct notes only ever uncovering the bottom hole. Even four or six notes are rather more than "it's only get one hole so it can only make two notes."

I doubt if anyone knows or could know whether that flute was used for music, but it's not unreasonable to say that it might have been.

Edited: /s/unfeasible/unreasonable


PS. And if I stick my little finger over the bottom end I can make all sorts of noises ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c6T6suvnhco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YcGZfVehez0


Not just ancient people could make music with only one note. So can modern people! First video is Francis Bebey and the second are Pygmy musicians. Very very cool stuff! Check out other songs by Francis Bebey where he uses the same flute.

They are bone, I know, but check them out. Have holes and they can be played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TqOqgA5_Ik