Delrin Pratten

[Jeggy]

Yes it's unlikely demand for irish flutes is the problem, but it's very likely that global demand for clarinets is a problem, or as you say for decorative substitutes for ebony which is vanishing even though it wasn't widely used for irish flutes. If you do any woodworking you quickly encounter words and phrases like "scarce, rare," or "increasingly difficult to find." If there is a better or equal substitute, why contribute to that problem?

I suppose the main thrust of my point was that while the endangerment of rare and high quality woods is an issue, the very small population of conscientious simple system flute makers making a small volume of flutes, very often using less endangered woods, synthetics or both, or indeed, caring for and repairing antiques; doesn't need to feel overly guilt-ridden. Nor do we as purveyors and cherishers of said flutes.

Having said that, I completely agree. As conservationists, we should strive to minimise the impact on the environment as best we can and synthetics are part of that, though not necessarily a completely satisfactory or comprehensive substitute. I really like the sound of the stuff that Geoffrey Ellis does with his techniques, using more common woods and using epoxy to seal them. I'm not sure if the epoxy is a massively problematic stuff, but it seems like the best of both worlds.

[david_h]

...doesn't need to feel overly guilt-ridden. Nor do we as purveyors and cherishers of said flutes....

Some makers and purveyors are helping with sustainability - see 'supporters' at the foot of this page: https://www.blackwoodconservation.org/

Elsewhere it says 70-100 years to harvesting. So we have to make our blackwood flutes last at least that long.

[glacier]

We're getting a little off course from the OP's question- but my own thoughts are that even more than the blackwood (or other woods) vs delrin in the environmental cradle-to-grave question is to pass along instruments that are sitting around and not being used. Saying that as the owner of 5 hardwood clarinets in 3 keys (each of which has a purpose and does get regular use). Worth looking at the quiver from time to time and sussing what instruments might be played more often in other hands. Goes for more than just instruments of course.
(ps, anyone have a used 6 key blackwood Copley in good condition? My turn on the waitlist isn't till October.....)

[Ultratone]

Francois Baubet makes a keyed delrin flute--never tried one of his.

FWIW, my experience with both the maker and his flutes has generally not been good: I’ve had 2 keyless and one keyed. Two were acquired used, one was ordered and purchased directly from the maker. All were problematic, not instruments I ended up wanting to own.

To be fair, I very briefly tried a fellow forum member’s Baubet and it seemed to play well. I also have an acquaintance who is a fine player and he has owned one or two Baubet’s that he liked. I trust his judgement on flutes as we nearly always agree on the subject of flutes. Still, he tried one of the Baubet’s I thought wasn’t right, and he found it problematic as well, so I know it’s not just me having issues with some of Baubet’s flutes.

Could you please explain what exactly were the problems with the flutes? Thanks.

[Loren]

Could you please explain what exactly were the problems with the flutes? Thanks.

I could, but I’m not going to because 20+ years on this forum has shown me repeatedly that nothing good will come of it.

Of course you may well be thinking that’s a cop out, but consider the following:

If I outline specific problems with playability or tuning, then people will think/say “well that’s all up to the player”, which is only partially true, and debate to the contrary tends to be contentious. Further more, some owners will undoubtedly jump in and say their Baubets play fantastically and have spot on tuning. They may or may not, how is one to know? Again, these types of conversations tend to devolve once begun.

If I talk about the craftsmanship and mechanics, then inevitably some will chime in saying that in their opinion Baubet’s flutes exhibit excellent craftsmanship and work flawlessly. Well, the fact is….. few, if any, of these people are professional craftsmen. Fewer still will have ever made a woodwind even at the hobby level. None that I am aware of will have been professional woodwind makers with thousands of hours of training and experience under respected established makers. Which is to say, their opinions on craftsmanship are not worth much and shortly after I feel obliged to point this out, threads are likely to get locked and disappear.

I’ve already (very unintentionally) been involved in a recent thread that got ugly and was deleted, so I’m not going to purposely and needlessly poke the Moderator Bears, who’s efforts I very much appreciate.

I honestly don’t have a grudge or any axe to grind with Francois, I said my piece to him years ago and moved on. Any opinions I express, pro or con, are simply offered as a data point that potential buyers can choose use any way they want, or ignore completely. Makes no difference to me as I have no skin in the game, I am just trying to help those with less experience avoid some of the costs and pitfalls I experienced along the way, and general comments, rather than specific, seem to be less…….problematic, in that regard, if you see what I mean, after the long winded explanation above.

Probably not the answer you wanted or were expecting

[Terry McGee]

Yes, we can empathise, Loren, discussions on topics like this can go wildly awry.

Now, I come to this discussion late. I've been "burning the midnight oil" of late, firstly trying to get a stock of "Flutes Available Now", then trying to rebuild it when people take advantage of it! (The nerve of some people! As soon as you have flutes available, they want to buy them!) The reason I join now is that I just happened to have completed a Pratten keyless in Delrin, and have available at the same time a Pratten keyless in African Blackwood. I'm hoping they won't disappear overnight, because it gives me the opportunity to really investigate the differences as perceived by the player. Happy to talk about the differences as perceived by the maker as well (while the feelings are fresh), if anyone is interested.

So regard this as a "heads-up" only. It's a few minutes to midnight, I'm pooped, and I'm off to bed. It's been a long day in a series of long days. In the morning, I have a flute case to line, a 6-key to give its final tweaks, two flutes to package up early tomorrow for posting and then the rest of the day is mine. With a bit of luck, I'll get to investigating the difference between these two instruments then. Unless something else happens.....

Uh-oh. The clock has just struck midnight, and a pumpkin drawn by rats has pulled up outside....

[PB+J]

I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on Delrin v blackwood. I'm perpetually torn between tradition and innovation and Delrin seems in many ways to be the perfect material. Also aren't their variants? Other forms of Delrin or other resins that might be more stiff or lighter? I have several "delrin" flutes and they all seem to be slightly different material.

[Loren]

Terry, have you got a spare flute player about the house? Now would be a good time for a blind listening test between those two flutes. The other player need not actually blind you, you could simply sit with your back turned while they play and switch between flutes.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

At one point I was making a lot of flutes from Delrin. Pretty much everything in my catalog at some point had a Delrin version. In fact, I was calling them my "Adventure Series" (trying my hand at some catchy marketing jargon) because they were designed to be taken outdoors, on backpacking trips, etc..

Delrin makes fabulous sounding flutes, no question about it. It machines well, is practically indestructible and makes these amazingly smooth bores which give nice response. But I don't use it any longer. I do have a bunch of odd pieces still in my shop that I periodically use for making different gizmos that help the process of flute making (making special holders, clamps, mandrels, etc.), but I do that on a very small scale and only because I have a bin full of the stuff. But I won't be buying any more of it.

I would never claim that my flute making process is "all natural". I use glues and epoxies, resins and various solvents. I definitely have a carbon footprint. So why draw the line at Delrin?

It's totally personal, but the plastic waste just bothered me too much. In an age where we are drowning in all the plastics we produce, I stopped feeling good about my flute making when I was dumping big handfuls of Delrin shavings into the garbage, and (even worse) sanding it down and creating clouds of micro-particles that were blowing out into the environment.

In the larger picture of global waste and pollution, I think flute makers barely register on the scale, and the amount of micro-plastics that I'm creating are as nothing compared to what happens when we wash all of those synthetic fleece garments. The amount of rain forest timbers we use, the amount of plastics, glues, epoxies or solvents are tiny when placed against the epic levels of pollution represented by the plastic packaging industry, or an oil spill (for example). I really don't think flute makers contribute very much in that sense. But somehow I found that Delrin was a bit symbolic and that every time I went to work with it I didn't feel particularly good. It's all in my head, of course, and I don't think there is any clear-cut ethical frontier that gets crossed when I pick up a piece of Delrin, since I use vacuum resin stabilization on wood. It's one of those arbitrary things. And it's too bad in some ways, because Delrin instruments can be so good and trouble free for the end user. But once it got in my head I couldn't seem to shake it, so Delrin became the scapegoat .

But it also started a train of thought that I've been contemplating for a few years. I'd like to find a way to make my flute making "all natural", or at least mostly. Use only natural finishes and materials, etc.. This is still just an unrealized impulse at this point. But the other day I was turning some resin-ivory to make a few Baroque style ornaments for a flute (I had never tried this material before), and the stuff is totally toxic. Smells like polyester resin (styrene) when being machined, and I really didn't like that. But now I have a bunch of these rods, and I'll probably use them up, but I won't be getting any more of it. I'd rather stabilize some holly and use that instead, making a compromise that is more agreeable.

However, until such a time as I embrace an all-natural approach I certainly can't fault any maker who uses Delrin. And even though it creates plastic waste, it also doesn't require the use of tropical timbers or any type of finish. And just as a point of interest, things like linseed oil are far from being eco-friendly, even though they are a natural finish. So "purity" is only ever relative.

[PB+J]

Thank you for this characteristically thoughtful answer!

[DrPhill]

That *was* a thoughtful and honest reply. Thanks Geoffrey, I feel your pain at wanting to do something, and explaining why. It is always difficult 'going public when you know that you have only part of a solution - it leaves you open to criticism that you have not gone far enough.... For what it is worth I applaud your aspirations.
I carve wood for a hobby and this year 'discovered' scrapers as a substitute for sanding. I was able to skip the coarser grades entirely and only finished off with 2000, 3000 grit out of force of habit. I don't know if a similar technique would help you in any way....

[Nanohedron]

Cannot delrin be recycled? I'm aware that it's not for the usual plastics bin, but some industries do practice in-house recycling of their product material.

[Conical bore]

I just happened to have completed a Pratten keyless in Delrin, and have available at the same time a Pratten keyless in African Blackwood. I'm hoping they won't disappear overnight, because it gives me the opportunity to really investigate the differences as perceived by the player. Happy to talk about the differences as perceived by the maker as well (while the feelings are fresh), if anyone is interested.

I think everyone here would be interested! Among other things, I'd be curious about the difference in weight, if any.

Another thing I'd be interested in, is whether you can feel the vibration in the air column more with Delrin vs. Blackwood. I believe that's something we feel with fingers covering the tone holes, i.e. the air column itself and not the material vibrating. So there shouldn't be a difference. But if there is, it would be interesting.

I'd like to find a way to make my flute making "all natural", or at least mostly. Use only natural finishes and materials, etc..

Dumb question maybe, but doesn't that inevitably lead you back to the 19th Century methods and materials used by modern flute makers offering wooden flutes? Aside from the metal bits -- rings, tuning slide, possible headjoint liner and keywork -- just about everything on a traditional simple system wooden flute is "natural."

You run into the sustainability issue with tropical hardwoods, but there are alternatives that don't involve resin infusion like the Canadian Maple flute offered by Windward. I think that's a heat treatment? Maybe similar to "torrefied" wood used in some guitars these days.

[PB+J]

Cannot delrin be recycled? I'm aware that it's not for the usual plastics bin, but some industries do practice in-house recycling of their product material.

I read online that it's recyclable, here https://www.vintageguitar.com/34081/jimmy-bryant/ and other places, but being recyclable and being recycled are two different things

[Nanohedron]

... but being recyclable and being recycled are two different things

But of course. My point is that within the standard domestic recycling industry, some plastics are unrecyclable for a variety of reasons. If delrin, however, is able to be recycled - even if only by specialists - we see that there is ample opportunity for reducing such waste and the pollution it causes. All it takes is initiative: collect your shavings and bits, and periodically pack them off to a willing delrin plant. Might even get a bit of money back for it; if not, it's still a good idea, and you can always count the cost as overhead.

Harder to deal with, and more insidious, are microplastics from sanding, as Geoffrey has pointed out. But well-equipped workshops use vacuum systems to collect sawdust; why not delrin dust as well?