Delrin Pratten

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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by PB+J »

I'm also interested in a delrin keyed flute, or maybe ebonite. Delrin must be unpleasant to work with because few people seem to want to use it. I remember Terry McGee complaining abut big piles of curled plastic shavings.

The Paddy Ward website doesn't show any delrin flutes, and neither does Gallagher's. Copley does, but who else? There's M&E and McNeela, which I think are the same flute, but they aren't pratten style I don't think. I wish Geoffrey Ellis was still making ebonite "Irish" flutes. Francois Baubet makes a keyed delrin flute--never tried one of his. I worry a bit about paying top dollar for a flute if the maker isn't enthusiastic about making it out of delrin
Last edited by PB+J on Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by kkrell »

PB+J wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:47 pmThe Paddy Ward website doesn't show any delrin flutes, and neither does Gallagher's. Copley does, but who else?
The Irish Flute Store had sold some Paddy Ward Delrin flutes, but only keyless versions in that material.
https://www.irishflutestore.com/search?q=paddy+ward

Damian Thompson was selling keyed ones until he moved his shop & isn't currently set up to make keyed flutes in any of the materials he works in.
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by Flutern »

PB+J wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:47 pm The Paddy Ward website doesn't show any delrin flutes, and neither does Gallagher's.
John Gallagher does make delrin flutes but his website is not representative of the range of options he offers. Just to give you an idea, my flute is a 9 keyer in olivewood with a double b flat and a Boehm foot joint. If you are considering his work it's probably best to contact him directly: he is helpful and approachable :)
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by Juan Pablo Plata »

PB+J wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:47 pm I'm also interested in a delrin keyed flute, or maybe ebonite. Delrin must be unpleasant to work with because few people seem to want to use it. I remember Terry McGee complaining abut big piles of curled plastic shavings.

The Paddy Ward website doesn't show any delrin flutes, and neither does Gallagher's. Copley does, but who else? There's M&E and McNeela, which I think are the same flute, but they aren't pratten style I don't think. I wish Geoffrey Ellis was still making ebonite "Irish" flutes. Francois Baubet makes a keyed delrin flute--never tried one of his. I worry a bit about paying top dollar for a flute if the maker isn't enthusiastic about making it out of delrin
My keyed Baubet, Rudall medium/big holes design and made of delrin, is great. Creamy sound, easy to play and very, very responsive, not the loudest (who cares that??) and a great low d. You can order a keyless and, after that, change the body to a keyed one if you like the instrument. That is what I did.
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by Loren »

PB+J wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:47 pm Francois Baubet makes a keyed delrin flute--never tried one of his.
FWIW, my experience with both the maker and his flutes has generally not been good: I’ve had 2 keyless and one keyed. Two were acquired used, one was ordered and purchased directly from the maker. All were problematic, not instruments I ended up wanting to own.

To be fair, I very briefly tried a fellow forum member’s Baubet and it seemed to play well. I also have an acquaintance who is a fine player and he has owned one or two Baubet’s that he liked. I trust his judgement on flutes as we nearly always agree on the subject of flutes. Still, he tried one of the Baubet’s I thought wasn’t right, and he found it problematic as well, so I know it’s not just me having issues with some of Baubet’s flutes.

I also found procuring a flute from Francois, as well as his attitude towards customer service….difficult. I’ll leave it at that.

Plenty of people have reported being happy with their Baubet flutes and I certainly don’t doubt their experiences, just offering my own here so potential buyers can make an informed decision.
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by Steve Bliven »

I have to add that I've had good experience with both M. Baubet's flutes (one keyless delrin purchased used and one bespoke boxwood keyless) and with his customer service. The bespoke flute came in the time frame provided at the time of order and I had good response to questions during the construction period. Both flutes play very well for me. I don't know whether M. Baubet is a full-time maker or has a "real" job that might affect his time for making, but I had no issues. As always, flutes are personal items—what works well for one may not work for others—and, as individually made means they may vary one from another. My experience is admittedly a small sample and i really can't speak to consistency over time or between his instruments.

Bottom line, while others results may vary—but I've been happy.

Them's my thoughts.

Best wishes.

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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by cac »

Kevin Krell wrote, "OP seems to be asking for a keyed Delrin flute, not the keyless ones most have recommended." You're right. The OP didn't mention that his interest was confined to keyed delrin flutes in his original post, and I missed his later discussion when I made my post. Sorry, Chet
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by PB+J »

There was a thread a while ago about Delrin and my recollection is that flutemakers who recognized it was an extremely viable material for flutes but didn't like working with it. It's dense, entirely waterproof, resistant to thermal movement, and nearly impossible to crack, and it doesn't contribute to deforestation, but it lacks the "romance" of wood and possibly it sounds different. I have a Ellis ebonite pratten and I love it: I wonder if I'd like a delrin flute he made as much.

I look all the time at keyed "Irish" flutes and I think "that's a big investment for something that's almost surely going to crack at some point." So a keyed flute in delrin or ebonite seems like a good idea
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by Mr.Gumby »

p it doesn't contribute to deforestation
But you will have to question, when considering the processes involved in producing the material, the piles of waste turning the flute and getting instruments itself, which will be circling the great Pacific garbage patch long after we are all gone, how environmental considerations balance out. Especially when set off against sustainably produced wood. Not in favour of using delrin, I suspect.
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by Steve Bliven »

I seem to recall an article about how the old growth Delrin forests in Poland and elsewhere were being decimated. Can't find it at the moment but I'll keep looking.

And, regarding shavings, I received a Delrin flute from Vincenzo Di Mauro that was packed in the shavings from the flute-making rather than styrofoam peanuts or bubble wrap. I saved them and, when I later moved the flute along, reused the shavings. Didn't solve the disposal issue but did move it around a bit.

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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by Loren »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:15 am
p it doesn't contribute to deforestation
But you will have to question, when considering the processes involved in producing the material, the piles of waste turning the flute and getting instruments itself, which will be circling the great Pacific garbage patch long after we are all gone, how environmental considerations balance out. Especially when set off against sustainably produced wood. Not in favour of using delrin, I suspect.
I agree, it’s hard to make a case for polymer flutes being more environmentally friendly than sustainable woods. Other, perhaps, than that fact that a polymer flute could conceivably last 500 or a 1000 years. Not that we humans are likely to still be walking the earth then, at least not at the rate we’re currently going…..
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by Nanohedron »

PB+J wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:20 am... but it [delrin] lacks the "romance" of wood and possibly it sounds different.
I agree the romance is lacking, but the tone will depend on the maker. Years back I tried a delrin Seery and was very favorably impressed with its tone and playability; I thought it stood up to any blackwood flute. My only misgiving was that the body wasn't as stiff as wood, being a bit boingy in the hand, but entirely playable nonetheless once I got over the sensation. Whether this had to do with construction or the material itself is beyond my pay grade.
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by PB+J »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:15 am
p it doesn't contribute to deforestation
But you will have to question, when considering the processes involved in producing the material, the piles of waste turning the flute and getting instruments itself, which will be circling the great Pacific garbage patch long after we are all gone, how environmental considerations balance out. Especially when set off against sustainably produced wood. Not in favour of using delrin, I suspect.
I'm not silly enough to imagine any solutions are utopian, or without cost. But the problems of making and disposing of delrin are substantively different from the problem of deforestation, with a different political economy. I just got an all-electric car. People are eager to tell me that batteries exact an environmental cost and so does generating power, and I say yes I know this but on balance it seems better to go electric. I would probably say the same about delrin, but I haven't looked into its manufacture.

Sustainably produced blackwood is a nice idea, but I'd like to see some evidence that it's actually going on. There are surely common north american (I'm in north america) hardwoods that can make good flutes, especially if the wood is treated in some way, but of course that would introduce environmental costs. There are probably non-traditional woods that would work--Osage orange, for example, is extremely hard and dense, also persimmon. Both are pretty common. But of course making wide use of them would introduce sustainability issues.

And I'm not a flutemaker and don't really have any expertise, though i've done some wood turning and luthiery on an amateur level.

Delrin, BTW, is recyclable
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by Jeggy »

I struggle to imagine that it's the modern irish flute maker population single-handedly denuding the world of high quality, instrument grade wood. The same wood is used for furniture, bowls, knick-knacks and of course more 'mainstream' woodwinds. Obviously no one wants to be a part of the problem but I believe we're talking about a very small slice of the pie chart.

Also, a note on Francois Baubet's flutes, in wood or delrin: I really like them and they suit me very well and I have 3. He's a nice guy and very accommodating in terms of variations in my experience. I suspect if you absolutely needed a flute made by a certain date then you might get caught out, in my case it was 50/50 - one on time, one later than planned (though there was a reasonable explanation). His lead time for a delrin unkeyed is about a month and, as mentioned, he will add keys later if desired.
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Re: Delrin Pratten

Post by PB+J »

Jeggy wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:14 am I struggle to imagine that it's the modern irish flute maker population single-handedly denuding the world of high quality, instrument grade wood. The same wood is used for furniture, bowls, knick-knacks and of course more 'mainstream' woodwinds. Obviously no one wants to be a part of the problem but I believe we're talking about a very small slice of the pie chart.

Also, a note on Francois Baubet's flutes, in wood or delrin: I really like them and they suit me very well and I have 3. He's a nice guy and very accommodating in terms of variations in my experience. I suspect if you absolutely needed a flute made by a certain date then you might get caught out, in my case it was 50/50 - one on time, one later than planned (though there was a reasonable explanation). His lead time for a delrin unkeyed is about a month and, as mentioned, he will add keys later if desired.

Yes it's unlikely demand for irish flutes is the problem, but it's very likely that global demand for clarinets is a problem, or as you say for decorative substitutes for ebony which is vanishing even though it wasn't widely used for irish flutes. If you do any woodworking you quickly encounter words and phrases like "scarce, rare," or "increasingly difficult to find." If there is a better or equal substitute, why contribute to that problem?
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