Questions and a request for practical advice

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jim stone
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Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by jim stone »

I recently bought online two largish pistol cases, made of plastic with a rubbery eggshell-box interior. I put inside one a keyless blackwood flute (made by a maker in whom I retain complete confidence). When I opened the case after a week or so, the flute looked like a zebra. The eggshell points had rubbed something off the outside of the flute in several places, revealing a lighter brown wood. I conclude that the maker had applied a darker finish over a lighter wood, which the points had managed to remove from the flute pressing into them in the box.

Is this a good guess for what's happened? It certainly appears to explain it. Is it common for makers to create the dark appearance of our blackwood flutes by adding a darker finish over wood that, while grenadilla, is actually lighter in color. In short, what's going on? Can it be 'fixed'?

Here's the request for practical advice. I've turned the eggshell upside down to reveal the smooth underside. But I'm afraid the zebra effect will happen anyway. Cutting channels/slots for the flute to create a space for the flute seems a good idea, as there will be much less pressure. How does one do it? What tools does it take. I'm especially interested in how one creates a smooth and level bottom for the slot.

There seems to be something here that perhaps should be more widely known, both about flute finishing and also egg-shell flute cases. Thanks for any answers.
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Flutern »

jim stone wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:40 pm Is it common for makers to create the dark appearance of our blackwood flutes by adding a darker finish over wood that, while grenadilla, is actually lighter in color. In short, what's going on? Can it be 'fixed'?
Yes, ABW is sometimes brownish, and woodwind makers usually use a dark finish. Some clarinet models are even offered in unstained ABW: see this one for instance. I find it prettier than stained ABW.

Have you tried simply re-oiling the flute?
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Not sure about that 'usually' when it comes to applying a stain.

I do remember collecting a flute from Sam Murray that was distinctly brown. He explained that had to do with it being freshly turned, it would turn dark in time. And it did.
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Conical bore »

Maybe I'm out of touch with the current flute market, but I wouldn't assume that reputable makers are staining their "blackwood flutes" to achieve a black appearance. Personally, I would return a flute that arrived that way and was sold as blackwood. The last blackwood flute I owned, a Windward keyless, was definitely not stained to achieve that appearance. Could this have been a chemical reaction with the foam that somehow bleached the wood?

Anyway, I can offer one bit of advice on cutting channels in foam for the flute. Mark the size of the slot you want, and slice the edges all the way through to the back side with an X-Acto knife or razor blade. Make sure you're cutting perpendicular to the surface. Then remove the middle piece and slice it horizontally for whatever depth you want, and place it back into the slot for your bottom cushion.
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by jim stone »

Thanks to all for your comments and advice. I did, since I posted, oil the flute and, by golly, it seems to have brought it back to its original blackness. I am pleased but baffled. I did have a maker ask if I wanted the blackwood flute he was making for me dyed black. I declined and got a flute that looks black, anyway. Apparently there is black and blacker. The instructions on how to cut the foam are exactly what I wanted. Thanks again to all.
I wonder if cocus is 'finished' in this sort of way.
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Flutern »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:04 pm Not sure about that 'usually' when it comes to applying a stain.
By 'usually' I meant clarinet and oboe makers, who represent the bulk of woodwind makers using ABW today. The finish they apply does look different than the finish on the few blackwood flutes I have seen: it makes the outer bore look shinier and smoother, and you can't really see the grooves of the grain of the wood like you do on the few ABW flutes I've seen (e.g. Copley, Morvan).
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by an seanduine »

There are a lost more muso´s these day than ever before. Even with sustainable growth management, some compromises have to be made with African Black Wood. When I was a child, shprtly afterthe Pleistocene, ABW practice for clarinets was slightly different. I was told rough-cut billets of ABW were put into cans and buried for at least 20 years, reputadely with used crankcase oil. Then shipped to Northern Germany and turne-able billets werte cloven out of the rough-cut fletches with an axe. Any splintery or discolored wood was rejected, designated as ´seconds´. It´s different now.

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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Terry McGee »

Hmmm, the suggestion about staining blackwood is puzzling. Very dense resinous timbers don't tend to stain well.

You do get some variation in blackwood. Some is very black even when freshly turned, some has really nice streaks of a luminescent brown in it. Some is dead smooth, some has a more grainy consistency. But once it's all polished up and oiled, you'd only make out the differences under pretty strong light.

I oil my new flutes twice. It might be my imagination, but I feel they look "dry" and "dull" after the first oil, and much nicer after the second.

It does remind me that way back in the seventies or so, there was an Irish chap making Irish flutes either in England or Ireland (Tom someone?) who used cheap light-coloured woods painted shiny black. The flutes were and looked ghastly!
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Geoffrey Ellis »

I think that the foam did what some other substances can do and leeched the oil out of the wood. Back in the day I made a lot of Native American style flutes, whose sound mechanism was created using an external block which was typically tied on with a leather thong. It was commonplace to find flutes that had been finished with oil developing a "tan line" where the ties went, even when the flute was new. Meaning, wood can get a tan line from being protected from UV light (which will darken wood around the covered portion), but this takes a little time. But the leather would wick the oil out of the wood very quickly, leaving it distinctly lighter colored underneath. I used some oil finish from time to time, and I had to remember to remove the ties after a bit and re-oil before shipping the flute. The fact that the OPs flute was light colored where the foam contacted it, and then it was restored with an application of oil seems to support this.
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Sedi »

Maybe the foam in the case sucked all the moisture out of the wood at the points where it made contact? That might explain the "bleaching" effect.
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Flutern »

Terry McGee wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:25 pm Hmmm, the suggestion about staining blackwood is puzzling.
Hi Terry, if you look at the technical specifications of the Buffet Crampon Vintage, you'll see that it explicitly states "Dalbergia Melanoxylon, Stained African blackwood". On the other hand, the Festival (from the same company) states "Dalbergia Melanoxylon, Unstained Grenadilla". I'm not making this up :)
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by jim stone »

Thanks again, everyone. I'm glad to find the sky isn't falling after all. I thought initially that I would have forever a zebra flute. Now I'm rescued by almond oil. Tomorrow I will follow Conical Bore's instructions for modifying the case. Kind regards
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Terry McGee »

gwuilleann wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:37 pm
Terry McGee wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:25 pm Hmmm, the suggestion about staining blackwood is puzzling.
Hi Terry, if you look at the technical specifications of the Buffet Crampon Vintage, you'll see that it explicitly states "Dalbergia Melanoxylon, Stained African blackwood". On the other hand, the Festival (from the same company) states "Dalbergia Melanoxylon, Unstained Grenadilla". I'm not making this up :)
Heh heh, even stranger given they've used our common name (African Blackwood) for one of them, but the more stylish Grenadilla for the other. Yet given the same botanic name for both! They both look pretty black!

I'm reminded that many years ago the Queen visited Australia. A gushing female radio announcer said "The Queen is wearing a lovely shade of black...", which of course had all the pedants out pointing out that black doesn't have shades. Looks like Melanoxylon (literally Black Wood) now does!
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Nanohedron »

Terry McGee wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:46 pm ... which of course had all the pedants out pointing out that black doesn't have shades.
Any look through my laundry will disprove that.
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Re: Questions and a request for practical advice

Post by Terry McGee »

That's Fifty Shades of Grey, Nano....
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