Sound files - $9.30 3D printed D Flute

[msupples]

Hi all, I've seen a number of posts mention 3D printed instruments (mostly whistles) on this forum, but haven't seen a ton of sound files.

Here's a 3d printed D flute (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:162490). Cost to print in resin is $9.30.

Caveat: I'm a Scottish and Uilleann piper and not a flute player until I printed this 5 days ago. But I did just order a Damian Thompson flute because this is quite fun!

Blarney Pilgrim: https://soundcloud.com/msupples/blarney ... 8jr5IUFspD

Hector the Hero: https://soundcloud.com/msupples/hector- ... q3EUSAVXud

For added fun, here's a smallpipe chanter in A with a low F (keyless) and high B (keyed) that I designed and printed: https://soundcloud.com/msupples/fb-chan ... O5JBW2bC1d

[plunk111]

Sounds more like a Baroque flute than an Irish one to my old ears, but an interesting sound even so.

[Steve Bliven]

On the other hand, it does sound like a flute—particularly when compared with some of the wooden versions found on eBay. Not clear that we're seeing the future, but it's an interesting step.

Best wishes.

Steve

[PB+J]

I tried a 3d printed whistle not long ago and was not impressed. It was rough, relatively fragile and didn't play very well. On the other hand Casey Burns was very enthusiastic about 3d printing whistles out of "optical resins" and his website suggests he still has high hopes for the idea.

I would think you would still need to do a lot of tweaking to get a good flute even if the 3d printing was sound

[msupples]

Sounds more like a Baroque flute than an Irish one to my old ears, but an interesting sound even so.

A factor might be that I'm not a flute player (until I printed this a few days ago).

I tried a 3d printed whistle not long ago and was not impressed. It was rough, relatively fragile and didn't play very well. On the other hand Casey Brusn was very enthusiastic about 3d printing whistles out of "optical resins" and his website suggests he still has high hopes for the idea.

What you played was probably printed with FDM, whereas I used SLA (optical resin) printing, which is what Casey references. When you think of a 3d printer, you usually think of FDM, but SLA has 10x the resolution of FDM, so it's quite smooth. I wipe the surface of prints with acetone which further smooths them down and helps to make any seams less noticeable.

I think one real advantage of 3d printing is that you can rapidly prototype. It takes me 5 minutes to move a hole in the software and another 5 minutes to set up the printer and that's it - rather than hours to manually turn and create an instrument. Once the design is done, you can copy it with traditional means.

The other advantage is that designs are possible with 3d printing that could not be done with traditional means, or at least not without excessively expensive tools and complex manufacturing process. For example, I've made smallpipe chanters with coiled bores.

Lastly, it opens up the possibility of getting decent instruments into people's hands who can't afford traditionally manufactured instruments. My 3d printed smallpipe chanter actually sounds quite good, so one project I'm planning on is a <$15 3d-printed highland pipe practice chanter to get decent quality chanters into folks hands who maybe can't afford a traditionally manufactured one.

[PB+J]

Fascinating--good luck and I await your results

[Nanohedron]

Sounds more like a Baroque flute than an Irish one to my old ears, but an interesting sound even so.

Put this in the hands of an experienced player. Then we'd have a better idea of its capabilities.

[Flotineer]

Neat!

Is the embouchure just as it’s printed, or is there handwork involved afterwards?

[Terry McGee]

msupples, I'm guessing that this is a plain cylinder flute? IE, the whole bore is a cylinder, end to end? It's got that "forlorn" sound I associate with cylinder flutes.

Now, I'd like to be able to claim that that "forlorn" sound is simply the signature sound of flat upper partials, but we know that the switching action of the jet re-synchronises the upper partials to restart every cycle of the fundamental. So they shouldn't sound flat, at least in theory. FFT (Fast Fourier Transforms, or Spectrum Analysis) confirms what we think we know - the partials come in directly in tune, forced back into tune by the jet switching. Yet we can hear that signature tonality. Are we smarter than I think? Surely not! I'm not even smarter than I hoped!

It would be very interesting to use exactly the same 3D printing technology to print a conical flute, or a Boehm bore flute. The latter would be easier - you could just print a second head for the existing flute following Boehm's headjoint bore. I could come up with the numbers if you wanted to try it.

Do you happen to know the density of the plastic you are printing? Our typical Blackwood comes in at around 1.2 (where 1.0 is the density of water). Delrin is around 1.4, boxwood around 1.0 KG/M3. I wouldn't want to go less than boxwood for our style of flute (Renaissance flutes used fruitwoods around 0.7)

[msupples]

msupples, I'm guessing that this is a plain cylinder flute? IE, the whole bore is a cylinder, end to end? It's got that "forlorn" sound I associate with cylinder flutes.

Now, I'd like to be able to claim that that "forlorn" sound is simply the signature sound of flat upper partials, but we know that the switching action of the jet re-synchronises the upper partials to restart every cycle of the fundamental. So they shouldn't sound flat, at least in theory. FFT (Fast Fourier Transforms, or Spectrum Analysis) confirms what we think we know - the partials come in directly in tune, forced back into tune by the jet switching. Yet we can hear that signature tonality. Are we smarter than I think? Surely not! I'm not even smarter than I hoped!

It would be very interesting to use exactly the same 3D printing technology to print a conical flute, or a Boehm bore flute. The latter would be easier - you could just print a second head for the existing flute following Boehm's headjoint bore. I could come up with the numbers if you wanted to try it.

Do you happen to know the density of the plastic you are printing? Our typical Blackwood comes in at around 1.2 (where 1.0 is the density of water). Delrin is around 1.4, boxwood around 1.0 KG/M3. I wouldn't want to go less than boxwood for our style of flute (Renaissance flutes used fruitwoods around 0.7)

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Terry.

Interestingly, this is a conical bore flute. I'll post the section analysis at the end of this post. I do wonder if my playing ability is to blame for much of the tonal quality - I'd not played a flute before I printed this a week ago. Would be interesting to hear it in a skilled flautist's hands, and I can record it again after I've taken a few months of lessons using a more commercial flute.

The density for the resin I'm using is cited as between 1.05 and 1.25 g/cm^3, and it does sink in water. So, I suspect it's a bit on the lighter side. Another flaw with this is that the material is easily fatigued, so tuning slides do not work well (they tend to fall off after a few hours of use). I did print one up that I just glued the whole thing together and it's held up fine. I think designing it to accept a brass tuning slide may work.

Of note, this is not my personal design - I've mostly focused on pipes at this point, but do plan to do a little flute experimentation. My professional training is as a mechanical engineering, and I can make any modifications to it as needed.

[Terry McGee]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Terry.

Interestingly, this is a conical bore flute. I'll post the section analysis at the end of this post. I do wonder if my playing ability is to blame for much of the tonal quality - I'd not played a flute before I printed this a week ago. Would be interesting to hear it in a skilled flautist's hands, and I can record it again after I've taken a few months of lessons using a more commercial flute.

Ah, I told you I wasn't as smart as I had hoped! Yes, it could just be lack of flute blowing experience, time will tell here. You might also find this helpful: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Getting_the ... k_tone.htm

The density for the resin I'm using is cited as between 1.05 and 1.25 g/cm^3, and it does sink in water. So, I suspect it's a bit on the lighter side. Another flaw with this is that the material is easily fatigued, so tuning slides do not work well (they tend to fall off after a few hours of use). I did print one up that I just glued the whole thing together and it's held up fine. I think designing it to accept a brass tuning slide may work.

That density sounds to be in the right ballpark at least. And yes, a metal tuning slide sounds good. I'm imagining when they talk about 3D printing metal, it's still a plastic? So still lacking in the strength you'd like?

Of note, this is not my personal design - I've mostly focused on pipes at this point, but do plan to do a little flute experimentation. My professional training is as a mechanical engineering, and I can make any modifications to it as needed.

Very good. Now, it might be an optical illusion or I am even less smart than I had feared, but does the bore as shown in the section image swell to a maximum between the top hole and the embouchure hole and then taper down to the stopper end? We expect our conical flute heads to be cylinders.

[rykirk]

I think this has a lot of potential. I wonder if you could partner with an existing flute maker to use their designs or measurements of historical instruments they have researched. I don't see this posing a threat to wooden makers business, people who want and can afford a nice hand crafted wooden instrument will still seek those out. But maybe you could get more niche historical instruments or just flutes with good geometry into the hands of people who otherwise would never otherwise purchase them because they can't afford the cost.

Is it economic for you to print and finish them and then sell them on? Would there be any advantage to these over the currently available budget PVC instruments? Selling the files is cool but I don't see myself buying a 3D printer any time in the near future.

[msupples]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Terry.

Interestingly, this is a conical bore flute. I'll post the section analysis at the end of this post. I do wonder if my playing ability is to blame for much of the tonal quality - I'd not played a flute before I printed this a week ago. Would be interesting to hear it in a skilled flautist's hands, and I can record it again after I've taken a few months of lessons using a more commercial flute.

Ah, I told you I wasn't as smart as I had hoped! Yes, it could just be lack of flute blowing experience, time will tell here. You might also find this helpful: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Getting_the ... k_tone.htm

The density for the resin I'm using is cited as between 1.05 and 1.25 g/cm^3, and it does sink in water. So, I suspect it's a bit on the lighter side. Another flaw with this is that the material is easily fatigued, so tuning slides do not work well (they tend to fall off after a few hours of use). I did print one up that I just glued the whole thing together and it's held up fine. I think designing it to accept a brass tuning slide may work.

That density sounds to be in the right ballpark at least. And yes, a metal tuning slide sounds good. I'm imagining when they talk about 3D printing metal, it's still a plastic? So still lacking in the strength you'd like?

Of note, this is not my personal design - I've mostly focused on pipes at this point, but do plan to do a little flute experimentation. My professional training is as a mechanical engineering, and I can make any modifications to it as needed.

Very good. Now, it might be an optical illusion or I am even less smart than I had feared, but does the bore as shown in the section image swell to a maximum between the top hole and the embouchure hole and then taper down to the stopper end? We expect our conical flute heads to be cylinders.

In fact the head is tapered to be smaller at the stopper end and larger at the juncture where a tuning slide would be. The diameter at the stopper end is 18.3 mm, the maximum bore diameter is 21mm and the end diameter tapers to 13.8mm.

In terms of material, FDM printing can use wood filament and carbon fiber filament. Metal 3d printers do exist, but lack resolution. The best resolution is SLA printing (optical resin) which really is limited to plastics. There are different formulas available with various toughnesses (toughness in the technical sens, i.e. more flexible and less brittle). The materials are strong enough for instrument use, at least the smallpipe chanters I've made have held up well to repetitive use.

The biggest limitation is the size of SLA prints. Machines under $500 USD will typically print up to 200mm in length. To get to 400mm length, machines cost around $2000 USD. To get much higher than 400mm they become quite expensive. Obviously this means with home user (non commercial) machines, you have to print in sections, and the joints tend to be a weak spot.

I think this has a lot of potential. I wonder if you could partner with an existing flute maker to use their designs or measurements of historical instruments they have researched. I don't see this posing a threat to wooden makers business, people who want and can afford a nice hand crafted wooden instrument will still seek those out. But maybe you could get more niche historical instruments or just flutes with good geometry into the hands of people who otherwise would never otherwise purchase them because they can't afford the cost.

Is it economic for you to print and finish them and then sell them on? Would there be any advantage to these over the currently available budget PVC instruments? Selling the files is cool but I don't see myself buying a 3D printer any time in the near future.

I agree this does not pose a threat to the wooden business, or even the traditionally manufactured Delrin flutes. Right now I think the best application is creating an exact copy of a well-designed conical bore flute at very low price to take the place of budget PVC instruments.

Cost-wise, a high resolution printer that could produce the flute in 3 sections (the one shown above is in 5 sections) is around $1.5k and very high quality resin is around $175/L (the resin I sued for this flute is $40/L), so the cost to produce 100 flutes with this would be about $58 each USD with very high quality material, or $25 USD for normal quality material. The time to print 100 of them is about 1 week.

[Terry McGee]

In fact the head is tapered to be smaller at the stopper end and larger at the juncture where a tuning slide would be. The diameter at the stopper end is 18.3 mm, the maximum bore diameter is 21mm and the end diameter tapers to 13.8mm.

Ah, very interesting. This looks like a notion that occurred to me many tens of years ago that I never got around to doing anything about. (Young people, these days, I don't know....) Having noted that our conical flutes have to taper down to around 60% diameter at the bottom of the bore, but that Boehm's head only has to taper down about 10% at the stopper end, I wondered if you could combine the two. And noting that Boehm liked a 20mm bore except for the negative impact on the top of the third octave made me wonder if we could even fatten the thing up a bit. One of the reasons I never got around to trying it was the thought of making reamers for something that might be a complete dud. Looks like the design you are employing does all those things! 3D Printing offers bold new possibilities!

I would be interested in seeing (and/or hearing!) how the scale from D up to the third octave D works out, if you get a chance and are interested in sharing. And gain the confidence to blow that range with authority!

I agree this does not pose a threat to the wooden business, or even the traditionally manufactured Delrin flutes. Right now I think the best application is creating an exact copy of a well-designed conical bore flute at very low price to take the place of budget PVC instruments.

No, I don't think it poses a threat at this stage, but the aims should include exploring new possibilities to shake us out of our lethargy. Development usually is a mix of slow progress interrupted by leaps and bounds. We didn't really go for that big bound that Boehm introduced back in 1847. We're probably due a new one around now....