Chiff and Fipple Forums

Hi everyone,
I'm preparing to make some wooden keyless flutes, lined with metal in the head. A few steps of development beyond my SHANNON.
My question: Does it have to be sterling silver? Is brass a dealbreaker, or does brass put the flute in a lower class? Is Nickel silver any better/worse? If brass made the flute more affodable than silver, would you still buy such a flute?
Please! I'm not interested in opening the debate about lined / unlined / partially lined; we've had plenty of that discussion already. However, if you are a person who thinks metal lining is acceptable, or if you've played a good flute that came with a liner, I'd like to hear your opinion (as a prospective buyer) about the option of these different metals. Thanks.
Walt Sweet

I wouldn't think it would make much difference, but...I had a flute with a brass liner that was markedly improved when I put a headjoint on it which had a silver liner. Unfortunately the makers were different, so it wasn't a very good test. Chet

I don't think it particularly matters, except for possible factors of corrosion (brass, or dissimilar metal galvanic corrosion). Not a problem as long as kept clean, and moving the slide every once in a while to prevent bonding. I think most common usage in liners/tuning slides tend to be nickel-silver or silver. I find brass to brass more commonly in whistles, & again seems OK to me.

I play a Cocus 8-key Aebi flute that I bought used, and it has a brass headjoint liner. I've never thought it would be better with silver. It patina's down to a matte yellowish color seen through the embouchure hole and I've never had any problems with it.

I suppose if I was a completely anal-retentive individual I might want to see silver to match the other fittings on the flute -- the rings and keys. But I don't care. It sounds great, easy to care for, that's enough for me. I'd buy another flute like this Aebi with a brass lined headjoint in a heartbeat. Or silver, I'm not convinced it makes much difference other than aesthetics.

I played an original Rudall & Rose for many years that had Sterling Silver keys, rings, and presumably headjoint lining, and also an original c1860 London-made flute with German Silver (cupro-nickel) keys, rings, and headjoint lining.

I didn't see that it made any difference.

In general I'm a fan of German Silver which was extremely common in Victorian times, but which has (for no apparent reason) lost out to brass in modern times. Personally I'd like to see Sterling Silver or German Silver, not brass.

Has anybody tried aluminium?

I've played flutes with both kinds of head liners, silver and also brass. I never noticed one sounding better than the other.

pancelticpiper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:12 am Has anybody tried aluminium?

That's a question worth asking.

pancelticpiper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:12 am Has anybody tried aluminium?

Might not be a good idea, according to a list of thermal coefficient of expansion found on this site: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... -expansion

Aluminum 25.5
Brass (typical) 18.9
Silver 18.8

The fear of every flute owner with a lined head is the wood cracking due to differential expansion of the liner. If that list is accurate, it looks like aluminum moves more than brass or silver. Since brass and silver are very close in CoE, you can easily substitute one or the other without a change in risk due to cracking.

Might also be too soft, especially when using thin walled tube as would be needed for a tuning slide. It's quite a bit softer than brass. So could get stretched over time and the tuning slide becoming loose.

I would worry more about corrosion if aluminium was used - it is more reactive than the other two (1). Not only for aesthetics, but because (iirc) aluminium oxide is bulkier than aluminium. Oxide between the liner and the timber would increase the likelihood of cracking maybe. (Disclaimer: I am not a flute maker, and have not seen a flute with a lined head in real life)

(1) Copper and silver are below hydrogen on the electrochemical series, aluminium is well above.

You'd have to use anodized aluminium anyway but aluminium forms a natural oxidized layer on top in seconds (after cutting or filing for instance), after that, it should be pretty inert except for contact corrosion. And there'd probably be no contact corrosion between wood and aluminium. But it also does not glide very well.

As a purely emotional response as a customer, I view sterling silver as a higher quality material, more expensive, and one that I'm willing to pay more money for than yellow brass or white brass. I've purchased three new flutes with lined head joints. My Copley (which I still play) came standard with a sterling silver head joint and barrel lining. For my John Gallagher and Olwell, both of which I sold on, the sterling silver was an extra-cost option. When I was working with tubing, I found white brass (German silver) to be harder than sterling silver and hence more difficult to work. I would expect no difference in sound quality from sterling silver, yellow brass or white brass.

I would agree that as a customer, I view the silver as a higher quality material and I have willingly paid more for the silver slide upgrade. Sterling, is most desirable.

On the other hand, I have and play a flute with brass tubing. It plays so well for me that I don’t think about the lining being brass. I can’t perceive a difference in tone quality between brass and silver.

BKWeid wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:09 pm I would agree that as a customer, I view the silver as a higher quality material and I have willingly paid more for the silver slide upgrade. Sterling, is most desirable.

On the other hand, I have and play a flute with brass tubing. It plays so well for me that I don’t think about the lining being brass. I can’t perceive a difference in tone quality between brass and silver.

That's how I feel about my Aebi with a brass liner. Nobody sees it but me anyway, through the embouchure hole.

It does make me wonder why that choice was made on what must have been an expensive flute when bought new (I bought it secondhand), because it's a Cocus flute. That's usually considered top shelf in recently made flutes due to the near-unobtanium wood.

If there isn't any mechanical advantage in stiction with the slide, then maybe it was a nod to the way the 19th Century flutes were made? This flute is a pretty close Rudall copy, adjusted for modern intonation and with a newfangled stopper design. Were most Rudall and Rose flutes from around mid-Century lined with brass or silver?

I don't remember making a study of it, but I'd assume like most flutes of the time they were nickel or possibly silver-plated brass, but with a thin-walled sleeve of sterling silver covering the bit protruding from the barrel. So when your adoring audience (or audient in these Covid-constrained days) looks at your flute, they see a nice flash of silver between head and barrel (you do keep that bit polished, don't you?). But if they wrested the flute from you, and pulled the head out from the barrel, they'd see that all those years of tuning have worn the plating off the male slide, showing patches of the underlying brass.

That approach remains an option, Walt, for your instruments. You could use brass tubing, either plated or not, for both male and female slides. With just a short thin sleeve of silver popped onto the end of the female slide protruding from the barrel. That could be a press fit or even glued these days.

Or even just silver-plate the outside of the end of the female slide? As long as it doesn't rub the walls of the cavity into which it hides when closed, the plating should last a pretty long time!