Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by Peter Duggan »

Julia Delaney wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:12 pm The young player has taken my words at face value (he's a very good player). He is still coming to our session and is writing down the names of "essential" tunes, to learn on his own.
And that sounds like a good result! :)
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by ecadre »

As a quick reply to Bcoopmando.

It's not about "new" learning techniques or the use of technology during practice. No-one here has expressed any issue with that. I strongly suspect none of the people in this thread have any issues with that as long as people are learning from good sources.
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by Bcoopmando »

Thank you for you quick responses. I am really glad to hear the young fellow is coming to those sessions. As a musical player I have experienced situations where the younger folk have been made to feel very uncomfortable to the extent of embarrassment with the result being staying away. It makes me feel better knowing their is compromise. Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by Hack with a Flute »

I had been playing ITM for a few months when I went to my first session in Chicago at the Bistro. Bear in mind, I spent many years sight-reading for a living- broadway show books, orchestra pieces, jazz charts, etc… The session was being led by Sean Gavin and Devin Shepherd. I was having an awesome time and actually knew a few of the tunes they were playing. Sean started playing a tune I’d heard but didn’t know- I think it was Limestone Rock. I got TunePal out, pulled up the dots, propped the phone up on the bar table and started playing along (quite well if I do say so myself). Next thing I know, Sean hooks the table with his foot and yanks it so hard my iPhone went flying!!!!

I’ve never done that again!!
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by John Driscoll »

Very relieved to hear you were able to have a face to face conversation with him and he's encouraged to keep coming. I think that's the most important thing.

Is reading music at a session a total buzzkill? yes. It's the session leader's responsibility to set boundaries and keep everything in line.

Do we want new players joining us in learning the tradition? yes.

I try to worry less about the "what is this world coming to??" line of thinking, and focus my attention instead on how to address the awkward moments that inevitably arise when new faces show up at a session.

When a new person shows up, usually they've mustered a lot of courage and decided what they're going to do before they come sit down. They're likely nervous, or at least uncertain, and looking for direction. Unfortunately not everyone knows how to just say, "I'm a new player and I'm learning Irish music. Is it ok if I join you?" But also not everyone knows how to say "Hey, if you don't already know the tune, it's better to just listen than to try to stumble through it. Write down the name of the tune and learn it for next week. And I do hope to see you here next week"

A little direct communication goes a long way. And it's far better to keep the gates open to younger players than to shoo them away for not automatically knowing the unspoken session etiquette.

caveat - I'm a youngish player (34), and I've only been at it a handful of years. I've probably unintentionally ruffled a few feathers in my learning process.
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by Nanohedron »

John Driscoll wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:59 am It's the session leader's responsibility to set boundaries and keep everything in line.
Sometimes there is no designated leader. In the Twin Cities, for example, most public sessions are quite democratic, sociologically speaking, because the habit some publicans have of requiring a leader just isn't part of the landscape, and we encourage our less experienced to muster up the courage to make their contributions, too. We do have our leaders in a diffuse, fluid sense, but normally nothing's assigned, and these leaders have clout because they're respected, but depending on the occasion they don't necessarily call the shots, because that means you have to spend more energy on policing than on the more pleasant pastime of tune sets. Plus, for us it would seem overweening. It's a social occasion, not a performance. So if someone shows up with sheet music, we're more likely to leave it at, "We don't do that here," and for the rest of the time shoot each other looks and hope the offender has enough social sense to get the message. Usually they don't, but insist that their approach is perfectly valid when it clearly isn't. We've had one repeat offender for donkey's years, but we don't ban her, because we leave her in the dust anyway, rendering her irrelevant in practical terms. She knows the drill, and yet she complains and expects to be accommodated. Well, that's one instance where we're not so democratic. She's been around long enough with plenty of time to change her approach. Since she knows better, so it goes: At the ear-learned session level, it's sink or swim. Once she decides to play sessions by ear, I can assure you she will be welcomed (with relief) into the fold and given every assistance.
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by rykirk »

Specific incident in the OP aside, I'm curious why there is such a gut reaction against reading from sheet music in here. If the person can't sight read well, then of course it's a problem. But reading from sheet music isn't necessarily full blind sight reading. Many musicians practice music extensively and still have the notes up in front of them as a guide post when they perform. Coming from a classically trained background I also dispute the notion that sight reading must be stilted, lack feel, or be slow or inaccurate in anyway. There are many very competent readers out there. If they can play the tune and keep up why does it matter if it's from memory or off a sheet?
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by Conical bore »

rykirk wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:01 am Specific incident in the OP aside, I'm curious why there is such a gut reaction against reading from sheet music in here.
My take on it, partially repeating what was said earlier. You can do anything you want at home or with like-minded friends, however a particular culture has developed around the "Irish session" held in a public venue like a bar or restaurant, which is what this forum mainly deals with. That culture has traditionally meant memorizing the tunes and not reading from sheet music on a stand. It is what it is, it's called Irish traditional music for a reason.

In a session, someone will start a set of three or more tunes, sometimes announced in advance but often not. You might hear and identify the first tune, but you won't know which tunes will follow. It's part of the fun and the skill of session playing, not knowing what's coming and then being able to jump on the next tune if you know it. The transition from one tune to the next one in a set of three or more tunes is seamless, no delay. No time for you to hunt through reams of paper to find the right tune, and the rest of the players who have memorized the tune aren't going to wait for you.

In addition to the transition problem with sets, the sheet music you're using may not be the same setting as the one being played. Most Irish tunes played in sessions are not locked down in definitive versions like Classical music. They can exist in different settings where your sheet music may clash with what's actually being played in a particular session. You could, I suppose, make a recording of what's being played and then go home and transcribe it, but this doesn't solve the problem mentioned above, about not always knowing in advance what tune will come next in a set.

Finally, when reading sheet music you can't make eye contact with the other players. This is an important way to know how things are going, and if the set is about to end or something else is coming. You are separated from the rest of the group in your own little world, instead of looking and listening to sync up with the others.
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I think the most important element fails to get mentioned : playing Irish traditional dance music is not rolling off a string of notes repeatwedly, there's a constant variation, melodic, rhtyhmic and of ornaments as well as various players responding to what any of the others are doing. The devil is, as always, in the fine detail. To be able to do this requires long time immersion, experience and familiarity with the idiom. I can only assume someone needing the crutch of the sheet, will be lacking those (in fairness, a skilled traditional musicians can read a basic tune from paper and put in 'the bits' at will but that's not the point here, at that level of skill there's likely no need for the sheet in social situations).
In 1983 I was in a piping class at the Willie week, we all had to play our tunes to let the teacher assess where we were aty. After I played my bit he said 'well, you have all the notes: how about starting to play the music?' Well, that was a novel idea.. :tomato:
There aren't really any shortcuts, babysteps and patience, playing an awful lot and being in the company of good traditional players, immersion and it may come.
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by rykirk »

Conical bore wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:39 am
rykirk wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:01 am Specific incident in the OP aside, I'm curious why there is such a gut reaction against reading from sheet music in here.
Finally, when reading sheet music you can't make eye contact with the other players. This is an important way to know how things are going, and if the set is about to end or something else is coming. You are separated from the rest of the group in your own little world, instead of looking and listening to sync up with the others.
Fairplay about 'its a tradition people just don't do it that way' and the right of a group to play how they want. And granted about the variations on tunes, but this final point is absolutely not true. Not for a good reader. Watch a good string quartet, they're constantly looking back and forth at one another and using visual cues and body language, nods, etc. Good reading is reading ahead. If someone is literally reading note to note as the music goes by with their head buried in the stand they are not a good sight reader, or reader period.
playing Irish traditional dance music is not rolling off a string of notes repeatwedly, there's a constant variation, melodic, rhtyhmic and of ornaments as well as various players responding to what any of the others are doing
I think some of you guys are grossly underestimating the ability of well trained musicians as far as reading, inserting variation, ornamentation, etc. while reading, and the ability to 'feel' the music. Stereotypes about stiff string of notes classical musicians are not a reflection of reality past about a high school band level of training.

Anyway, all purely academic for me as we have no local public session, I just play with like minded friends in our homes. I just find the knee jerk reaction against using notated music odd.
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I think some of you guys are grossly underestimating the ability of well trained musicians as far as reading, inserting variation, ornamentation, etc. while reading, and the ability to 'feel' the music. Stereotypes about stiff string of notes classical musicians are not a reflection of reality past about a high school band level of training.
Read what I said:
a skilled traditional musicians can read a basic tune from paper and put in 'the bits' at will but that's not the point here, at that level of skill there's likely no need for the sheet in social situations

But a clasically trained musician in need of the notes for an Irish music session will most likely lack the skill and insight into that particular type of music. That is something that can only be acquired over time and that point that musician will most likely be well beyond the need for written music.

The stereotype of the clasically trained musician entering Irish traditional music without a proper grounding and an attitude of 'how hard can it be' is very much alive though (not pointing fingers here or implying anyone here belongs to that group but they do regularly make an appearance in the wild, only to find different idioms have very different demands and aethetics). That's probably the major friction point.
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by Julia Delaney »

@ rykirk:
There are many very competent readers out there. If they can play the tune and keep up why does it matter if it's from memory or off a sheet?
Classically trained musicians who insist that they can sight-read a tune as well as a musician who has learned the tunes through the tradition -- by listening and memorizing the tunes -- are like fundamentalists who insist against all evidence that they know the truth. Confirmation bias would be a problem for classically trained musicians if there was any evidence to support their position.

I have known several classically trained musicians, all highly accomplished, who can read a tune and get all the notes right, with perfect timing and intonation. But not a single one of them ever made me want to play as they did. They lacked the "nyah." For most of them, that word would have little meaning. Most of them would refuse to admit that there are certain aspects of traditional technique that they lack. They just don't know enough to understand what they're missing.

I would love to hear what Zoe Conway or Brid Harper might have to say about this.
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by Conical bore »

rykirk wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:56 amWatch a good string quartet, they're constantly looking back and forth at one another and using visual cues and body language, nods, etc. Good reading is reading ahead. If someone is literally reading note to note as the music goes by with their head buried in the stand they are not a good sight reader, or reader period.
The kind of skill you're talking about may be true for a good string quartet, but very few of the people I've ever met in an Irish or Scottish session have that kind of training. Many have picked up an instrument later in life and have never had an education in Classical music, including the training to read sheet music and still stay in sync with other players. We learn different skills in Irish trad.

It's folk music after all. It's structurally simple if you just look at the dots on the page, but there's a lot more going on that has to be learned by ear if you want to sound like you know what you're doing with it. Memorization follows naturally if you're spending enough time listening to the tunes instead of reading the dots.

When someone doesn't listen enough to know what's beyond the dots, you get this kind of horror show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w65438PCGM
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by Nanohedron »

rykirk wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:01 am Specific incident in the OP aside, I'm curious why there is such a gut reaction against reading from sheet music in here.
Of course some Trad players have a sweeping distaste for sheet music on general principle, but IMO that's reactionary. It has its place; I prefer to learn by ear, but I've gone to the dots when I want a tune but am having a hard time putting it together by ear. I see nothing wrong with this. The main thing is commitment to memory so that I don't have to rely on the dots, can thereby put meat on the bones, and can fly free.
rykirk wrote:If they can play the tune and keep up why does it matter if it's from memory or off a sheet?
Because no obligate sight reader can keep up in a normal Trad session. I've seen it a million times, without exception. They are bound to their paper, no matter how good they are. They must be told what tune's being played if they don't know it, and even if they know it, then they must find it either way, and by the time they do, the tune's almost done and it's off to the next. There will be favorite sets that everyone knows and expects, but in really good sessions, you don't necessarily know what's coming next until it starts. This is all nonstop and on the fly. It's the quintessence of the traditional session experience, and participants should be at the ready. If you don't know a tune, you sit out and listen, hopefully to learn it. That's how it works.

The only solution is to institute a designated dots-friendly session where the set gets announced beforehand, and everyone is given time to get their ducks in a row. Indeed, such sessions exist, but they aren't nearly as fun.
Conical bore wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:33 amWhen someone doesn't listen enough to know what's beyond the dots, you get this kind of horror show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w65438PCGM
This is a different, if related, issue. She has committed the tune to memory from notation - good for her - but as Conical bore points out, in Trad terms she isn't playing the tune so much as "getting through" it as as she learned it on paper, so she's not making the tune hers. This is a big issue in Trad: making the tune your own. There is no informed nuance, ornamentation, or lift; it's just the bones with almost no meat. The delivery is wooden and, frankly, galumphing. It takes a lot of active listening to one's betters if one hopes to cultivate an authentic sound. Without committed listening, you're condemned to the unsatisfying role of aping what you don't really grasp.
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Re: Smart phone/Tunepal aided playing at a session

Post by rykirk »

All fair play. I had no idea the session scene were such a tough audience. As I said we have no session scene here, generally just bands or artists performing. I was always under the impression sessions were sort of a come as you are affair with lower standards than a gig, but I see that's not the case. Tho, I have to say out of curiosity I spent some time on YouTube today and I saw some videos of sessions where the standard of playing is not as high as your guys all sound. I guess there's probably a wide variety out there.

Given all of the above commentary would you guys also have a problem with a player who showed up with all the tunes memorized but was still a stiff or clunky player? I'm sure there are lots of those out there, memorizing 16 bars isn't too hard afterall. The end result would be about the same, no? What's the etiquette for dealing with that?
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