Bore roughness and tone

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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by Sedi »

I think people underestimate how much air does in fact move through and out of a flute. I remember seeing a video where someone showed a photo of him playing in the winter outside -- it was very cold and eventually they had to stop playing because it was too cold. But in the photo you could see how much air does actually come out of the end of the flute and how far it moves. It was rather impressive. It looked like a rocket taking off. It was a huge blast maybe over a foot in length. So the air does move quite a bit, probably because blowing over the embouchure is nothing like a speaker producing a soundwave or playing a banjo.
Found it -- look at the 5:43 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNotyrTi94o&t=352s
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by david_h »

The discussion is about what is going on in the bore, where the jet at the embouchure is creating a standing wave, with pressure waves reflecting at the open ends of the flute, like this: https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/animat ... anvas.html (If the link doesn't work, it's the "open at both ends animation" from here https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/flutes.v.clarinets.htm

The animation I linked previously is what is going on in the air outside the ends (which I why I said "something like this") I couldn't find an animation for the standing wave that illustrated the particle movement. Inside the bore the particles are doing something similar, in that they are not moving from end to end but shifting back and forward a small amount. What's coming out the end sounds like a flute. A recording of a flute played through a loudspeaker sounds a like a flute. The waves in the air are much the same and the relevance to the discussion is that if you put your fingers on the diaphragm of a loudspeaker that sounds like a flute you can feel that the movements are in the order of millimetres even though the wavelength is in the order of a metre.

It's not like air moving down rough pipe. It's particles moving backwards and forwards by small amounts adjacent to a rough surface.

Does the roughness of the pipe influence the energy they lose? I think that relates to Loren's point.
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by Sedi »

The transmission of sound through air is one thing (I am familiar with the physics involved) -- but the movement of air through the flute is a simple fact. Yes, a standing wave is produced but also a stream of air through the flute mainly on the outside of the tube -- therefore -- the smoother, the better. So -- particles are indeed moving through the flute not just oscillating. But the standing wave is similarly produced at the embouchure itself -- which is why musicians place the mic there and not at the end of the tube. The air moving through the flute is more or less a "waste product" of the sound production but it is happening.

Edit: The thing is that the airstream is split and one part travels through the flute. It cannot enter the flute and then suddenly stop somehow and just sit there and oscillate. On a vessel flute like an ocarina with all holes closed there is no air travelling through the instrument and then leaving it but the air will still circulate inside. And that has not all that much to do with the propagation of the sound wave through the rest of the room.
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by skap »

"Waste product" is actually a pinpoint term, and if the air jet is well focused and directed across the blowing hole
and not into it, it will certainly minimize that air travelling through the flute and interfering with the sound wave.
In fact, very little air is needed if used properly. This may be the reason I don't feel any difference in response
between a smooth and a rough bore. But in folk flute playing it must be a different thing: the "airy" tone is probably
often desired and the air jet is directed more into the blowing hole on purpose, and the bore roughness may have
a more pronounced impact on response and tone in this case. So, eventually, everybody's right.
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by Terry McGee »

skap wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:42 am "Waste product" is actually a pinpoint term, and if the air jet is well focused and directed across the blowing hole
and not into it, it will certainly minimize that air travelling through the flute and interfering with the sound wave.
I don't think we have any evidence of the "air travelling through the flute and interfering with the sound wave". Yes, the air travels through the tube, but slowly and with no noticeable effect on the serious business at hand, the oscillating air column.
In fact, very little air is needed if used properly. This may be the reason I don't feel any difference in response
between a smooth and a rough bore. But in folk flute playing it must be a different thing: the "airy" tone is probably
often desired and the air jet is directed more into the blowing hole on purpose, and the bore roughness may have
a more pronounced impact on response and tone in this case. So, eventually, everybody's right.
I think it's oversimplifying things to talk about the "airy" tone as desirable. Some certainly seem OK with a tone edged with wind noise. I certainly am not.

But I do enjoy a hard, edgy tone. Produced by aiming downwards with a fairly high and tightly focused air flow. It's the offset between the centre of the jet and the edge that produces this edgy tone. It doesn't have to be accompanied with noise. I suspect that the noise we sometimes hear is air wasted in aiming for that high flow. But more work may be needed to establish this.

And I'm not immediately convinced that a higher airflow with an offset jet is likely to bring out more issues than a slower airflow with a more centralised jet. I'd have expected that both approaches would be fairly equally demeaned. I don't think that rough bores benefit anybody. As a maker, I enjoy making my bores shine!
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by Nanohedron »

Terry McGee wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:10 amSome certainly seem OK with a tone edged with wind noise. I certainly am not.
Same here. Given a well-made embouchure cut, I've always believed that the effects you get are all of a range of possibilities, and those are due to how you approach the head joint both in angle and in how the air jet is produced; if one player gets no discernible wind noise where another does on the very same flute - and I've witnessed it - then I should think that the answer is clear: If you want no wind noise but are producing it despite your aims, then there's more work to be done in exploring what works best. I have long been on record in maintaining that this does not necessarily mean more effort; it means more awareness, and this often results in relaxation, as has been my personal experience. You might be surprised at how little effort it takes to get that hard, edgy tone - and volume, too - but getting it it can mean a period of blindly banging your head against the wall at various spots until you find the door by accident and fall through, as it were. Terry explains the matter more concisely than I could:
Terry McGee wrote:But I do enjoy a hard, edgy tone. Produced by aiming downwards with a fairly high and tightly focused air flow. It's the offset between the centre of the jet and the edge that produces this edgy tone. It doesn't have to be accompanied with noise. I suspect that the noise we sometimes hear is air wasted in aiming for that high flow. But more work may be needed to establish this.
As to the last, the Ney comes to mind. I don't think I've ever heard a hissless Ney even from acknowledged masters, and in all fairness, I chalk this up to the bilabial embouchure technique, and this seems to be accepted as part of the aesthetic. But I'd already been long habituated to the possibilities of the Western flute, so the Ney's wind noise did put me off from learning it. Regrettable, really, but there you have it.
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by skap »

Terry McGee wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:10 am Yes, the air travels through the tube, but slowly and with no noticeable effect on the serious business at hand, the oscillating air column.
Well, actually I totally agree. I just replied to the statement that the air evacuated through the flute was underestimated
and is, in reality, substantial and potentially important. My opinion is that it's minimal and negligible, with more or less proper technique.
However, if this air flow through the tube was really exaggerated it could, theoretically, be perturbed by the roughness of the bore (turbulent flow) and interfere with the oscillating air column. It was my attempt at explaining things.

I'm not preaching in favour of rough bores. It's just very counter-intuitive that the difference would be noticeable, and, in fact,
is not confirmed by my personal experience. This said, I very much prefer shiny bores, because it's a mark of attention to detail.
Making a beautiful flute and leaving the bore rough is a bit like not painting the wall behind a painting thinking that nobody will see it
anyway.
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by fiddlerwill »

I was discussing this with a friend recently because my favourite sounding flute has a really rough bore! I mean i prefereerd its low D over some immaculate pollished bored flutes so ... make of that what you will!
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by Terry McGee »

fiddlerwill wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:50 pm I was discussing this with a friend recently because my favourite sounding flute has a really rough bore! I mean i prefereerd its low D over some immaculate pollished bored flutes so ... make of that what you will!
I guess it's telling us that the maker got everything else entirely to your satisfaction, while the makers of the other flutes didn't. Which doesn't necessarily mean they are less good flutes, just less ideal for you. (Unless they turn out to be less ideal for every player!)

The question then becomes "would polishing the bore of the ideal flute make it even better?" I guess we'll never know. Unless.....
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by Geoffrey Ellis »

Terry McGee wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:58 pm The question then becomes "would polishing the bore of the ideal flute make it even better?" I guess we'll never know. Unless.....
A very good question indeed. Since I belong to the "polishing makes everything better" school of flute making, I'm betting it would! But changing a beloved flute might feel too risky.
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by Tunborough »

skap wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:27 pm
Terry McGee wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:10 am Yes, the air travels through the tube, but slowly and with no noticeable effect on the serious business at hand, the oscillating air column.
Well, actually I totally agree. I just replied to the statement that the air evacuated through the flute was underestimated
and is, in reality, substantial and potentially important. My opinion is that it's minimal and negligible, with more or less proper technique.
However, if this air flow through the tube was really exaggerated it could, theoretically, be perturbed by the roughness of the bore (turbulent flow) and interfere with the oscillating air column. ...
At this stage in the conversation, I don't think we can rule this out... In a smooth bore, when the DC flow travels through the tube without turbulence, the DC flow and the standing wave can each go about their own business without interfering with each other, but in a rough bore the DC flow gets turbulent, with faster-moving spots in the eddies, and it starts to disrupt the standing wave because of non-linear effects. Anyone care to convince me otherwise?
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by Nanohedron »

Tunborough wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:33 pm Anyone care to convince me otherwise?
Hey, I'm just kickin' back with some popcorn, here.

Anecdotally, I once had a flute with a not-so-smooth bore; suffice it to say that its provenance was such that it did not constitute an investment except to the cheese-paring, so I felt emboldened with a brilliant idea: I clamped a thin but strong and long-enough wooden dowel (something over half the longest tube's length) in an electric drill's chuck, wrapped the dowel firmly with a couple or so layers of a soft cotton cloth strip (I wrapped it in the direction of the drill's turn for obvious reasons), and used that to polish the bore. The result was pretty impressive, for the bore ended up like a mirror, and I was no longer quite as crestfallen. I can't report how it improved the flute because it was long ago and the memory dim, the flute was scarcely better than good for being a cudgel, and of course the exercise did nothing to improve my playing at the time. But I was happier with my flute-like object, even if for no good reason other than the interior's aesthetic presentation was now pretty snappy, as these things go.

Despite my subjectively inconclusive findings - for what can an utterly green noob know, anyway? - I still find myself reflexively on the side of the polished-is-probably-best camp. I would love to repeat the experiment today. But please don't send me your fuzzy-lined flutes; do it for yourselves if you're so inspired, and see what you think.

I also prefer polished because I'm convinced that it sheds moisture all the better. That, at least, is not chopped liver.
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by fiddlerwill »

Well i would definately , theoretically, be in the polished is best camp, but... practically i found my self in the really quite rough is best camp (probably needs rereaming after some decades in a drawer i gather )
I mean i had this stunning Doyle flute which was like a mirror inside and out, everything crisp and immaculate , but the warmth of the rough flute found favour and the Doyle was moved on . I felt I Needed the tuning slide as well mind .
So yes im baffled .
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Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by Terry McGee »

Tunborough wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:33 pm At this stage in the conversation, I don't think we can rule this out... In a smooth bore, when the DC flow travels through the tube without turbulence, the DC flow and the standing wave can each go about their own business without interfering with each other, but in a rough bore the DC flow gets turbulent, with faster-moving spots in the eddies, and it starts to disrupt the standing wave because of non-linear effects. Anyone care to convince me otherwise?
I guess this becomes a scale depending on how degraded the bore is. Bringing to mind bores I have encountered...

1. Shiny, polished, smooth
2. Dull, matte, but still smooth to the touch
3. Sandy or furry (raised grain)
4. Corrugated (erosion, distortion)

(Does that cover the range?)

I wonder how roughened it would need to be to bring it into the range Tunborough has posited above? I'm thinking that No 2 is mostly an optical effect, and probably not of much sonic effect. I do believe I have noted improvements in dealing with Nos 3 & 4. But it has to be said that, having smoothed them, I would also routinely re-oil them and let them dry before playing again, so there might be several things happening between tests.
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Re: Bore roughness and tone

Post by fiddlerwill »

Mine is 3 and 4 but it plays wonderfully . All be it im basically a novice .
I think its partly a preference to a warmer less edgy sound. My favourite whistle is many years old and has a very different tone to modern whistles by the same maker of which I have 2 .
Much less high and mid range . I aldo prefer Gut strings on my fiddle and nylon string guitars .
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.


Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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