Sam Murray Chacate Flute?

[tradlad123]

Saw a few Chacate wood flute pop up on McNeela a few days ago, and now they're all gone.
Anyone here got one? If so any reviews? Just curious about the wood I've never heard of before

[kkrell]

https://www.prosono-hardwoods.com/hardw ... k-chacate/

Also known as false mopane.

I've seen it used in guitar back & sides.

[an seanduine]

Kevin, I must say this wood generates a very mixed reaction in me. Black Chacate is assigned to the family Fabacea, which is the same botanical family as Cocus Wood, Brya Ebenus. If it shares many characteristics with Cocus, it could make an outstanding flute timber. But if it also shares the same very slow growing properties, it could be liable to overexploitation and eventual commercial if not actual extinction.

Bob

[Jeggy]

I have a keyless flute in Chacate Preto. They seem to be relatively uncommon - David Angus uses it sometimes, Windward have a few flutes with Chacate elements, and I have one of three which Francois Baubet made with Chacate. As a wood, I'd say it's very light compared to blackwood. The colour is perhaps a mix between black/dark grey/ dark brown. The tone seems very bright. The wood itself seems to expand quite a bit more and more quickly than blackwood, and tenons can get very tight very quickly. I suppose a good comparator, other than the colour, might be Boxwood?

[Nanohedron]

Terminology can be a problem. There's leadwood, also called chacate, and chacate preto, or false mopane. From what I can glean, from a flute standpoint they are not interchangeable in their properties. Apparently chacate (leadwood) is a resinous, oily timber (it is very difficult to glue, so one assumes it would be not unlike blackwood), whereas chacate preto is not resinous. Lacking my own personal experience, Jeggy's likening of chacate preto to boxwood seems apt. Both chacate and chacate preto are attractive to look at, but I would personally lean away from chacate preto due to its ready absorbency. YMMV. It's entirely possible that the "preto" part might get lost in presentation, even when it matters to folks like us, so the ideal thing would be to try the flute out and see how it responds to moisture.

[Loren]

Kevin, I must say this wood generates a very mixed reaction in me………(snippage)…….
If it shares many characteristics with Cocus, it could make an outstanding flute timber. But if it also shares the same very slow growing properties, it could be liable to overexploitation and eventual commercial if not actual extinction.

Bob

Yeah, we really need to stop pillaging the resources of poor nations and destroying environment for our luxury goods. At this point we can stabilize and harden softer, quicker growing domestic woods to the point where they turn and play essentially like Grenadilla and Cocus. Granted, I have no idea what the environmental impact of producing the stabilizing agents is, so maybe it’s not as viable on the environmental front as it appears at first glance (don’t even get me started on EV’s), but I do think responsible instrument makers should be seriously looking at this.

[Nanohedron]

Yeah, we really need to stop pillaging the resources of poor nations and destroying environment for our luxury goods. At this point we can stabilize and harden softer, quicker growing domestic woods to the point where they turn and play essentially like Grenadilla and Cocus. Granted, I have no idea what the environmental impact of producing the stabilizing agents is, so maybe it’s not as viable on the environmental front as it appears at first glance (don’t even get me started on EV’s), but I do think responsible instrument makers should be seriously looking at this.

I heartily agree. There is work being done on sustainable polymers made from biomass, but at this point that's all I know. If they have any relevance to instrument making and don't come at a deleterious environmental cost, I think it's high time we should go that route.

[Loren]

Regarding anyone considering the purchase of a Chacate flute, just be aware you’d be essentially be volunteering to be a guinea pig - not enough examples out there to know how they hold up over time. Although from Jeggy’s description it sounds like we already have enough info to know that it’s a wood worth avoiding based on how quickly the wood absorbs moisture and expands - having one or more socket/tenon connections seized up after playing is a real drag.

Also, with that sort of moisture flow in and out of the wood, odds are it is going to oval and/or warp over time.

My personal feeling is that it’s irresponsible for flute makers to sell instruments made of woods they haven’t fully vetted prior to putting them into production. Making flutes isn’t like pen making where you can just choose whatever pretty looking wood you like.

The exception to the above would be special orders where a customer wants a flute made from a wood that the maker doesn’t typically offer, and the buyer accepts in advance that all bets and warranties are off because they’ve chosen to roll the dice on a wood the maker either won’t recommend or has no experience with. Nothing wrong with that scenario IMO. But then, nobody really gives a carp about MO Nor should they really

[Loren]

I heartily agree. There is work being done on sustainable polymers made from biomass, but at this point that's all I know. If they have any relevance to instrument making and don't come at a deleterious environmental cost, I think it's high time we should go that route.

Agreed. I left polymers out only because I know next to nothing about what’s currently available or on the horizon on that front. Obviously though I’m a fan of polymer flutes and it would be great to see something come to market that’s environmentally friendly, performs well for our purposes, and is less friggin slippery than Delrin Which makes me wonder…… if you could prevent the Delrin from bending via the use of a mandrel, how well would a knurling tool work on it? This is why apartment living sucks, no access to machine tools.

[Nanohedron]

I heartily agree. There is work being done on sustainable polymers made from biomass, but at this point that's all I know. If they have any relevance to instrument making and don't come at a deleterious environmental cost, I think it's high time we should go that route.

Agreed. I left polymers out only because I know next to nothing about what’s currently available or on the horizon on that front. Obviously though I’m a fan of polymer flutes and it would be great to see something come to market that’s environmentally friendly, performs well for our purposes, and is less friggin slippery than Delrin Which makes me wonder…… if you could prevent the Delrin from bending via the use of a mandrel, how well would a knurling tool work on it? This is why apartment living sucks, no access to machine tools.

Well, at the time I was thinking of polymers as hardening and stabilizing agents for softer woods, but as a flute material in its own right, sure; why not?

[Jeggy]

My personal feeling is that it’s irresponsible for flute makers to sell instruments made of woods they haven’t fully vetted prior to putting them into production. Making flutes isn’t like pen making where you can just choose whatever pretty looking wood you like.

That's perhaps slightly excessive. Chacate preto is a known wood used for instruments and considered suitable for woodwinds like clarinets and flutes. It's certainly a less common wood for flutes but not quite just a random wood which looks pretty.

[Loren]

My personal feeling is that it’s irresponsible for flute makers to sell instruments made of woods they haven’t fully vetted prior to putting them into production. Making flutes isn’t like pen making where you can just choose whatever pretty looking wood you like.

That's perhaps slightly excessive. Chacate preto is a known wood used for instruments and considered suitable for woodwinds like clarinets and flutes. It's certainly a less common wood for flutes but not quite just a random wood which looks pretty.

Or perhaps not.

“ Chacate preto is a known wood used for instruments and considered suitable for woodwinds like clarinets and flutes.”

Well that’s certainly wood supplier Prosono’s opinion, but I’m not sure we’re going to be seeing the likes of Abell and Powell using it on a regular basis, and even if they did, to my knowledge no one has a bunch of flutes out there that have been played regularly for years to see what percentage are coming back with issues. And by your description of how the wood quickly absorbs moisture and swells, that already makes it sort of a marginal flute material at best.

Ultimately time will tell, but according to Prosono’s website the supply is already available on an inconsistent basis, so it may not be available for long anyway. Prosono will no doubt come up with some other wood “suitable for woodwinds”, when that time comes, ‘cause wood sellers gotta sell wood. And I do wonder: who is cutting these “new” woods down, and on who’s land…..

[tradlad123]

So many interesting thoughts and opinions!
I was hoping someone here would have bought it... I guess not yet
here's the listing if anyone's curious:
https://mcneelamusic.com/wind/flutes/sa ... ate-flute/

[Loren]

Yep, looks like a flute alright.

[awildman]

I'm not sure this wood is related to cocus. Based on the scientific name, it is more closely related to Bubinga.

Regardless, exotic wood supplies are dwindling right now. I'm sure COVID has had an impact. I make a guess that this wood was not selected primarily for its suitability, but for its availability and price.