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I'm curious. If a good professional flutemaker has the wood ready to go and applies herself, and it's the only flute she's making, about how long would it take to make a keyless flute? Is it weeks or days or...? Ball park figures OK.

jim stone wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 3:52 pm I'm curious. If a good professional flutemaker has the wood ready to go and applies herself, and it's the only flute she's making, about how long would it take to make a keyless flute? Is it weeks or days or...? Ball park figures OK.

Depends what “has the wood ready to go” means, and what a given maker’s process is. Our process went something like this:

1. Seasoned wood billets turned round and oversize.

2. Gun drill pilot holes.

3. Let rest about 6 months.

4. Turn closer to final outside diameter and rough ream and ream to size.

5. Let rest a few months.

6. Re-ream and move forward with other steps.

7. Other steps can involve oiling and/or bore coatings which require 1 or more days drying time.

So, if you mean the maker has already done all of that, or doesn’t do all of that, and has fully reamed, seasoned and treated flute sections, sitting around ready for the next steps…… well, A really motivated maker could complete a keyless flute in 2 days, maybe 1 if they REALLY wanted to. I doubt most makers would be interested in doing it that way though. And it’s crazy inefficient to do one flute at a time from scratch regardless.

I don’t think anyone but the specific maker could accurately answer your question. And I’m fairly certain if you asked 20 maker the same question you’d probably get at least 6 different answers ranging from 1-2 days all the way to 6 months or more, even if the wood is “ready to go” because that term can mean very different things to different makers.

Just to clarify, our process took about a year from the time I turned a billet round until one instrument from that batch would be ready for sale or delivery. Most of the time between day one and finished instrument the wood was sitting around settling between steps, so that any movement that was going to happen could occur between steps, rather further down the line.

I’m pretty certain I’ve seen flutes that were made in a day, but I don’t think you’d be wanting one.

That said, I think Terry makes use of some CNC in his process which could certainly speed things up, so I’ll be interested to hear his take. Might be he has whipped up several flutes in a day!

I’m interested, too. But What if we said delrin instead of wood? Or maybe we said “how many hours of labor?”

You might get an answer to “how many hours labor” but I can’t say for sure in my own case because we mostly made recorders which are much more time intensive than flutes. In addition, typically we were doing runs of 20 to 100 instruments at a time, although I did occasionally do the odd one at a time under unusual circumstances, but I wasn’t counting clock hours and we still had the staging times.

Hopefully other makers will pipe up as I can see now I’m really of no use in answering the question

I'm probably not of much help answering the question because I use aluminium tube. But just fixing a lip plate and stopper, cutting an embouchure and drilling 6 holes, takes me about 1 to 2 hrs, including tuning of course.
Much more steps for a wooden flute of course.

Casey Burns is no longer active here on C&F, but I think there are older posts here if I remember right, about tossing blackwood Folk Flutes into the wood stove for warming the shop, when a friend played them and they just weren't up to snuff.

I know that happens with other instrument makers too. I've known a few guitar luthiers that have discarded top woods or sides because they just didn't pan out in an assembled instrument. So it may not be as simple as a fixed amount of time. You might have to consider rejects due to quality control when a billet of wood isn't turning right in the lathe, or whatever other reason. That's the kind of thing you pay for with a handmade instrument: quality control.

Yes, sometimes there is lost time due to defects in the wood, but I think Jim is asking what would the normal time be, unusual circumstances aside.

Part of the difficulty in answering the question in a general way is that flute makers processes vary widely from maker to maker. You might think that the processes of boring, reaming, drilling tone holes, cutting sockets, tenons, and cork slots, etc. are all pretty straightforward and essentially the same from maker to maker, but the tools, machine set-ups, and approaches to doing a given task can be surprisingly varied. As a maker I always found it fascinating to hear, and sometimes see, how other makers went about things, because inevitably they did multiple processes differently than we did, and the differences often equated to different times required to complete the task.

Another thing to keep in mind is: How well does a particular maker want, or choose, to do a thing? For some makers good enough is good enough, for other makers quantity of production is king, and a few makers are striving to get every detail just right, because they realize the best instruments (assuming the design is good) are a result of the cumulative effect of doing multiple things the absolute best you can. It’s like trying to make a formula 1 car as aerodynamic as possible, every little detail is managed and tiny gains in many areas add up to make a significant difference on the whole. But this takes time. Tone holes might be cut, tuned and finished in 30 minutes, or 3 hours.

I really wish people could see and understand completely everything that’s involved in making a top notch woodwind, so they could better appreciate the differences in the flutes out there and be more informed consumers.

Loren wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 8:28 pm I really wish people could see and understand completely everything that’s involved in making a top notch woodwind, so they could better appreciate the differences in the flutes out there and be more informed consumers.

Honestly, I'm always surprised how cheap even top makers sell their instruments compared to more "standard" classical instruments. A good clarinet can cost 10,000 Euros and more. Compared to that, most "Irish" flute makers (or romantic era flute makers) seem almost too cheap.

Sedi wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 2:16 am Honestly, I'm always surprised how cheap even top makers sell their instruments compared to more "standard" classical instruments. A good clarinet can cost 10,000 Euros and more. Compared to that, most "Irish" flute makers (or romantic era flute makers) seem almost too cheap.

And here I thought most flute makers live in mansions and drive fancy cars (at least when they are not riding in limos)...

Best wishes.

Steve

Sedi wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 2:16 am Honestly, I'm always surprised how cheap even top makers sell their instruments compared to more "standard" classical instruments. A good clarinet can cost 10,000 Euros and more. Compared to that, most "Irish" flute makers (or romantic era flute makers) seem almost too cheap.

Too much of an apples to oranges comparison to be useful really, but I get what you’re saying. Thing is, makers of flutes for ITM and such are largely self employed, 1 person, working from from home operations. Those who don’t work from home tend live somewhere that renting or owning a separate workspace is relatively inexpensive. Point being of course, the overhead is extremely low. Once you start making band instruments that need to be produced in any quantity, then you need more employees and all the expenses that go along with them. You likely need more machines and hand tools and a larger space to house them, etc. etc. Expensive band instruments usually involve some sort of advertising budget, expenses for travel and booth rental at trade shows, and so forth.

Even if all you do is bring in just one or two employees to your existing operation and space, your costs skyrocket, which is why the flute makers we know are all happy to primarily work alone, or with a family member, and they are ok with the longish waitlists.

I’d say all things considered, prices are fair and my best guess is that most flute makers are doing fairly well financially, or they could do if they chose to work 40 hr weeks and be efficient in their processes. That said, those two variables seem to vary widely among makers - some work part time at best, while a (small) few probably do average 40 hrs a week most of the year. But Of course flutemaking is lifestyle choice providing the freedom to do as you please, more or less, which is a wonderful thing. Having spent a few years grinding away at production and repairs 5-6 days a week, 40-60hrs a week, 50 weeks a year…. I can’t imagine keeping up that pace for decades.

I imagine most makers are happy enough with what their instruments sell for, or they would charge more, or work faster, or longer, or become more efficient, or….all of the above. I mean, a six figure (pre tax) income is very doable, although 100K a year ain’t what it used to be, and with the fed constantly printing fiat currency in massive quantities since covid started hyperinflation is on the way…..but I digress.

So, to bring it back around to the original point, in my view, simple system flutes by 1 person operations (family members helping doesn’t count ) aren’t really comparable to typical clarinet producers due to wildly different cost structures. And I’m just talking about profit based on operating expenses. High end clarinets and other band instruments garner higher prices for a variety of other reasons, like the amount of money a top professional using the instrument can earn.

Wow, that’s a lot of rambling early in the morning, what was I thinking….

And Jim is no closer to his answer.

One final thing to consider on the whole Clarinet/Simple System Flute comparison:

How many keyless Clarinets can a clarinet maker sell in a year?

Loren wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 8:32 am One final thing to consider on the whole Clarinet/Simple System Flute comparison:

How many keyless Clarinets can a clarinet maker sell in a year?

Maybe my example was not too well chosen .
They might make a few Grallas . Or a Chalumeau maybe?
I still think in comparison a wooden keyed flute doesn't seem all that expensive.
Considering how my neck already hurts after an hour at the workbench, I think a 40hr week is not really an option for flute-making however.

Sedi wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 9:01 am Maybe my example was not too well chosen .
They might make a few Grallas . Or a Chalumeau maybe?
I still think in comparison a wooden keyed flute doesn't seem all that expensive.

I’m sure the flute makers will be happy to hear that! Still, it begs the question: Are you actually a person who spends money on high end keyed flutes? That is to say, the target market, as it were?

Considering how my neck already hurts after an hour at the workbench

Are you standing on your head while working?? In all seriousness, that’s not right, for the sake of your health, address your workbench posture issues and adjust your seat height and/or bench height as necessary to facilitate good posture while working.

I think a 40hr week is not really an option for flute-making however.

Kids today…….. I take it you mean not an option for you.