Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

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Bcoopmando
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Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by Bcoopmando »

I was wondering what are the thoughts of these on an Irish flute?
Are they worthwhile to have. I also play tunes that are note ITM however I don't want to get into complicating
matters and going for 6 to 8 keyed flutes! I will never be that level of a flute player!
Thanks and I am open to any recommendations.
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by tstermitz »

If you play accidentals or key signatures outside of D & G, then yes, you need at least the Eb key because that note is pretty much impossible without it.

The simplest case is to get a smaller holed flute with Eb key, designed for playing with cross-fingerings. You'll have to confirm with the maker; I know that Chris Norman emphasizes cross-fingerings on his flutes.

Alternatively, a 4-key flute: Eb, G#, F and Bb. Now you can play pretty much all key signatures from 2 flats to 5 sharps. This is a good use case for an antique flute, but you do need to make sure it plays at A440 concert pitch.

Extremely few flute players us the C-thumb hole.
jim stone
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by jim stone »

I use the C natural thumb hole a lot. It makes the flute more agile. I use two cross-fingerings for the note too and using them and the hole in the right places simplifies some difficult passages. One has to learn to use it, it takes some doing to learn, but it's doable. I play flutes with the C-natural key, too, and maybe that's better, but the C natural hole is more than good enough. (I also play flutes with neither thumb hole or key.) Some makers offer thumb holes free, e.g. Dave Copley on his own flutes, and the price for buying one is minimal. FWIW. I like the Eb key too.
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by jim stone »

If I may add, I hope you won't talk yourself out of keyed flutes if you want to play diverse music. There's nothing especially daunting about them. You pick keys up naturally over the months as you play. And you can of course practice using them, as you would any other note. You don't need them for ITM but most ITM players agree they are nice to have.
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by Conical bore »

I don't have a flute with a C thumb hole so can't speak to that, but regarding the Eb key, I think the decision matrix looks something like this:

1) You already know some tunes that require the Eb note because it's essential to the character of the tune and can't just be skipped. For most of us who are relative newcomers to Irish flute, this is usually the result of having learned these tunes on another instrument where the Eb is easily reached. For me it was mandolin. This an easy decision; get a flute with an Eb key. That's what I did, because I love some of these tunes that don't usually show up in sessions, but I love playing them at home.

2) You don't currently know or care about tunes that require the Eb note. Maybe you only play common session tunes and don't plan to explore the fringes of the common repertoire. Easy decision: don't get a flute with an Eb key. Get it later if you need it.

3) You don't want to be limited on principle, and want an instrument that can handle anything that comes along. Another easy decision: get a flute with an Eb key included as part of a 6 or 8 keyed flute.
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by tstermitz »

Two of my favorite tunes use the Eb key:

"Tarbolton Lodge" and "Poor but Happy at 53". Maybe regular D-natural can work for the former, but the Eb note really makes the latter.

Your main point remains. I had no reason to lplay in one or two flats until I discovered some special tunes that sound so wonderful that I had to spend the time working up Bb key. A secondary benefit was that I was forced to play with a more correct hold, leading to more relaxed hands and faster articulations.
Last edited by tstermitz on Sat May 08, 2021 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bcoopmando
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by Bcoopmando »

Thanks for all your responses.
I actually come from a classical mandolin background and would like to be able to play scales outside the ITM genre.
I am used to playing anything from folk to classical to jazz and klezmer on my mandolin.
Conical Bore, do you still play mandolin?
It is a long waiting list for keyed flutes as I have come to the realize through this communities comments.
Would a 4 key system work for my needs or is it necessary to go for 6 as a minimum? It seems like the 4 key instruments would provide access to a chromatic scale? Am I seeing this clearly? I see to views in this thread with regards to 4 versus 6 or 8!
A clarification between these 2 views would be helpful to me. I suppose the more keys becomes more expensive and I suppose heavier with more possible maintenance issues.
Does anyone know of a flute out there which could serve my wishes and needs? I am open to a used flute as long as it is in playable condition and
one from a recognized flute builder.
If I proceed along this pathway I want to make sure I make the right choices.
All suggestions, direction and comments are appreciated.
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by tstermitz »

Oh, it's simple then. If you are used to playing anything from jazz to klezmer, then choose a six or eight key.

There are two excellent keyed flutes presently at the IrishFluteStore - Grinter (if you can afford it :-), and an Aebi. Also someone on this forum is advertising a Morvan flute - another great choice. (Not that I've played any of these flutes, but I've noticed good recommendations by others.)

Don't wait for two years or mess around with this that or another half-way solution, when you have three top-end choices available right now.

Six keys are fine, if your music doesn't go below D. Tunes in C, F, D-minor or D-minor often go down to C.
Last edited by tstermitz on Sun May 09, 2021 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by Conical bore »

Bcoopmando wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:18 pm Conical Bore, do you still play mandolin?
Yes I do! I just posted a photo of my combo flute + mandolin stand in another post here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=112152

I'm trying to move the majority of the Irish trad tunes I play in sessions to flute for a variety of reasons. It's faster to finger because you can slur notes across your fingering instead of picking every one. The flute I'm playing now is louder than my mandolin, which means I can keep up with the Alpha fiddlers in an Irish session, even though it's a very good mandolin. The next step would have been trying a resonator mandolin for sheer volume and I didn't want to go there. Also, on flute I have a wider range of idiomatic "Irish" ornaments by breaking the flow of a sustaining instrument in various ways, instead of adding plucked ornaments.

However! I still love the mandolin, and I bring it to sessions for the tunes I don't know yet on flute, or tunes that sit better on mandolin. Like that Cape Breton fiddle stuff that reaches down to the low G string on a fiddle. Try that on a flute.

Also I have a nice octave mandolin that I enjoy playing solo at home, where I can "milk" the sustain on slower Irish tunes like marches, "slow reels" and airs. A mandolin doesn't really work for the rubato phrasing in a slow Irish or Scottish air. But you can get somewhere in that neighborhood with a long-scale octave mandolin with good sustain. Of course this is also flute territory, but I'm not good enough on flute yet to do much justice to a slow air.
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by tstermitz »

"White Petticoat". That's another tune that really requires the Eb key.

"Crested Hens", AKA "Crusty Chickens".

As I said, the Eb comes up regularly as an accidental.
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by Nanohedron »

Conical bore wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:31 pmLike that Cape Breton fiddle stuff that reaches down to the low G string on a fiddle. Try that on a flute.
Ooooooh. Well, right back atcha, then:

Image

(From this Flute Forum thread)
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by Peter Duggan »

tstermitz wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:47 pm "Crested Hens", AKA "Crusty Chickens".
Not if you play it in its original key (D dorian > D minor), in which case you want an F, a Bb and maybe a C instead (although I think I play forked C here)...

But of course you want an Eb key anyway if you're getting keys!
tstermitz wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 3:35 pm Extremely few flute players us the C-thumb hole.
jim stone wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:42 pm One has to learn to use it, it takes some doing to learn, but it's doable. I play flutes with the C-natural key, too, and maybe that's better, but the C natural hole is more than good enough.
It's perfectly natural for Boehm-trained players, and probably more convenient than a key for venting C# if you like to do that. But, yes, there are contexts in which a forked C nat remains idiomatically preferable to key or thumb hole.
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by Conical bore »

Nanohedron wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:09 pm
Conical bore wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:31 pmLike that Cape Breton fiddle stuff that reaches down to the low G string on a fiddle. Try that on a flute.
Ooooooh. Well, right back atcha, then:
(From this Flute Forum thread)
That's a beast!

I talked with Casey Burns a while back when he was just starting to think about what 3D printing could do for a low flute. A much LOWER flute that would still be easy to finger. I don't want to spill the beans on his idea, which made sense. Let's see if he can develop it.
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Re: Eb Key and /or C thumb hole

Post by Nanohedron »

Conical bore wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:13 pm
Nanohedron wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:09 pm
Conical bore wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:31 pmLike that Cape Breton fiddle stuff that reaches down to the low G string on a fiddle. Try that on a flute.
Ooooooh. Well, right back atcha, then:
(From this Flute Forum thread)
That's a beast!

I talked with Casey Burns a while back when he was just starting to think about what 3D printing could do for a low flute. A much LOWER flute that would still be easy to finger. I don't want to spill the beans on his idea, which made sense. Let's see if he can develop it.
I also think that flute capos have been under-researched.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
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