Embouchure cuts

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davidbruce
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Embouchure cuts

Post by davidbruce »

I have been reading a lot about different shaped embouchures, and I'm having some trouble with the vocabulary.
Some makers refer to their embouchures as "oval", others as "ellipse". Terry McGee uses the term "Modern Cut". Dave Copley's website shows an example of a "squared ellipse."
I have also run into the term "rounded rectangle."

What I really need is a book about embouchure shapes.

I hope that some of the more experienced players here can explain the differences, particularly how the the shape of the embouchure influences the experience of the player. Is the squared ellipse louder? What tonal qualities might be associated with different shapes. Is one easier or more forgiving? (I don't like to use those terms but I can't thing of better words.) Does a larger embouchure hole require more air? Can a player be more expressive with one shape or another?

I know the main variable is the development of the player's embouchure, but there must be reasons for the different ways that flute makers cut the embouchure holes.

I look forward to a discussion.

Thank you.
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Re: Embouchure cuts

Post by Loren »

There is much more to embouchure hole performance characteristics than simply the shape of the hole: Size, undercut, overcut, how sharp or rounded the blowing edge, etc...... and that is without taking into account the design and materials of the flute itself which also interact with the embouchure geometry variables to some extent. And then there’s your embouchure and how you use it to move around the registers.

The answers to the questions you are asking are not as simple as “these are the different embouchure hole shapes and this is what you get with each.” If you truly want a better understanding of embouchure holes, your best bet is to search the internet, starting with the experts on the subject, the top modern flute makers’ websites and proceed from there.

Of course, Walt, Dave, Terry, or some other maker(s) may take pity on you and reply with more info, but the subject is worthy of further reading, and perhaps listening as well.
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Re: Embouchure cuts

Post by kkrell »

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Re: Embouchure cuts

Post by Loren »

kkrell wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:55 am Here's an article to get you started, courtesy of David Chu:
http://vintagefluteshop.com/articles/em ... /art5.html

and blog posts from Hammy Hamilton:
https://hammy-flutemaker.blogspot.com/2019/08/
https://hammy-flutemaker.blogspot.com/2 ... chure.html
Wherein Kevin gives the OP a shove down the rabbit hole :lol:
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Re: Embouchure cuts

Post by kkrell »

Loren wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:28 am
kkrell wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:55 am Here's an article to get you started, courtesy of David Chu:
http://vintagefluteshop.com/articles/em ... /art5.html

and blog posts from Hammy Hamilton:
https://hammy-flutemaker.blogspot.com/2019/08/
https://hammy-flutemaker.blogspot.com/2 ... chure.html
Wherein Kevin gives the OP a shove down the rabbit hole :lol:
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“Then it doesn’t matter which way you go,” said the Cat.
“—so long as I get somewhere,” Alice added as an explanation.
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Re: Embouchure cuts

Post by cac »

First, here is another useful link:
https://www.olwellflutes.com/post/varia ... int-design
And here are some short answers to your specific questions. Remember that these are just one player's opinions (mine):
(1) Is the squared ellipse louder? Yes, but the size of the tone holes and the shape of the conical part of the bore are also important factors in loudness.
(2) What tonal qualities might be associated with different shapes? I won't try to answer this.
(3) Is one easier or more forgiving? This very much depends on the player except that the following generalizations seem to hold: (a) a smaller embouchure hole is easier to manage than a larger one (this was noted by Theobald Boehm, the inventor of the Boehm flute), (b) a high degree of undercutting (on the blowing edge) makes the higher notes easier to manage at the expense of the robustness of the lower notes.
(4) Does a larger embouchure hole require more air? Yes, definitely.
(5) Can a player be more expressive with one shape or another? It is generally felt that the oval (elliptical shape) is capable of more expressive variety (note that this is not the same thing as 'more expressive') than the more rectangular shapes.
I hope this helps, but again let me emphasize that this is just one player's experiences, and we're all different. In addition to reading, you will need to try different embouchure shapes to learn which gives you the best match with the kind of sound(s) you want to have. Chet
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Re: Embouchure cuts

Post by davidbruce »

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. I am definitely down the rabbit hole, but getting a good education.
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Re: Embouchure cuts

Post by waltsweet »

Benade's description is the best ever; my hat's off to Hammy for reposting it. I depart very little from the description.
Loudness can be deceiving, especially for the beginner, especially for a player who comes from the Böhmflöte. I've seen many cases where such a player will have a degree of early success when the blowhole is cut in a familiar way, but the potential isn't there. I would say this: if you're evaluating a flute for its playability and suitability for the characteristic tone of the genre, then get it tested by a good player, or by several. If some (or many) of them can get a good tone, then you can learn to do likewise on that particular flute.
Years ago, I tried applying some of the details given me by the maker of Boehmflutes. The sound was easy and open, but again the potential wasn't there. To my ears, the sound was "tubby" and insipid, meaning it was lacking in harmonics, and the potential for tonal flexibility (and therefore artistic expression). Too much fundamental. This can be quantified with the use of an analog strobotuner. Once you hear it and see it represented, you will know. These days, I stay away from the square corners, especially the extra undercut at the back corners (near the lips).
Regarding the size of the blowhole, the most important measure is the "airgap," i.e., how far the airjet travels across the blowhole. It is easy to observe that the player will cover more of the hole for the low notes. If the hole is already large on this axis, then the flute will not favor the low notes. The other axis (along the bore) influences overall loudness. The blowing edge must be a straight line (not convex) going into the bore; too much undercut (>7°) interferes with the high notes.
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Re: Embouchure cuts

Post by Sedi »

waltsweet wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:28 amIt is easy to observe that the player will cover more of the hole for the low notes.
On the boehm flute it seems to be the other way round, if I remember correctly from reading this (it was a while ago -- someone posted the link here but I don't remember in which discussion it came up):
https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/~pdickens/
Wouldn't a shorter distance to the blowing edge favor the high notes? Similar to a shorter window on a whistle?
It might however just be a "side-effect" of the "classical" embouchure technique. My boehm teacher taught me years ago (over 30 yrs to be precise) to have a broad and tight embouchure for the low notes and a more rounded one with lips poking a bit more out, for the high notes. But I guess there are almost as many teachers as there are different techniques.
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Re: Embouchure cuts

Post by Sedi »

waltsweet wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:28 amThe blowing edge must be a straight line (not convex) going into the bore; too much undercut (>7°) interferes with the high notes.
I modelled mine after the blowing edge of a quena and drilled at an angle of almost 45 degrees (I think, I haven't measured it). Works like a charm. Very expressive and all of the ones I made can play at least 2 and a half octaves (I never ventured any higher but I suppose it would be possible). So either 1) I beat physics and flute acoustics (not very likely), or 2) I am an exceptionally good player (nope) or 3) there seems to be something wrong with the physics or 4) it's just because my design is so extremely different from any standard conical flute.
I can achieve any nuance I want -- from an open "boehm"-like "classical" sound to a rich, vibrant, punchy and reedy sound. Sure, some of the harmonics are lacking, especially in the 2nd octave, which is to be expected from the cylindrical design. But it took me more than a year of constant re-designing, especially the tone holes, embouchure size and stopper position to get where I wanted.
Seems to me that way more embouchure designs actually work than should theoretically be expected.
Some of the prototypes I made have an even more extrem angle at the blowing edge and an almost parabolic shape and still work great. I do this by first drilling a pilot hole off-center with an 8 mm drill bit, then in half-millimeter steps carefully drill them up to 9.5 or 10 and try to only remove material from the blowing edge, therefore giving it a more parabolic shape -- the biggest I made was 10.5 but it made the flute way too loud. And it interferes with the octave tuning if the embouchure is too big, as the stopper needs to be moved too close which reduces flexibility and "punch" of the low notes. Probably because the air-pocket above the embouchure works slightly like a vessel flute and those are very responsive to pressure changes when blown.
But you're the expert, I arrived at my conclusions only by trial and error in around 6 years of quena, whistle and flute making. So I don't even know why it works, but it does.
Fun fact -- the design was in part modelled after the quena but also came about by my misinterpretation of the "eccentric bore" by Terry McGee -- I thought he meant, "drilling the embouchure off center" while in fact he meant the bore of the flute head itself. That was the result of the similarity between the English word "bore" and the German "bohren", which means "to drill". So my translation mistake was to blame for the strange design :shock: :D .
Not really visible on the pictures are the rounded edges on the sides to reduce wind-noise. So maybe all in all about a third of the hole is blowing edge, the rest has dull edges. The blowing edge is as sharp as I can make it.
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