Chiff and Fipple Forums

Nanohedron wrote:Doesn't ozone bleach the wood, Geoffrey?

Good question. I've never actually tried it, but I'd be surprised. It's not what I'd call corrosive in any way and I don't imagine that such a short exposure would harm the wood in any way. But I'd have to put it to the test.

Geoffrey Ellis wrote:

Nanohedron wrote:Doesn't ozone bleach the wood, Geoffrey?

Good question. I've never actually tried it, but I'd be surprised. It's not what I'd call corrosive in any way and I don't imagine that such a short exposure would harm the wood in any way. But I'd have to put it to the test.

The reason I ask is that on a sneaking suspicion, I Googled "does ozone bleach wood?", and found that some paper mills are indeed using ozone to bleach pulp. Still, the difference between pulp and solid wood might matter, and also the type of wood as well. I agree that a test is called for if you can spare the material.

Ozone is extremely corrosive. It readily and energetically 'donates' its extra oxygen atom to any reactive substrate with which it comes into contact. This is essentially the text book definition for 'bleaching'. From my years of mushroom culture, I know several classes of fungi that specialize in using oxygenase enzymes to breakdown and 'digest' the lignin in wood. One, the Black Poplar mushroom (Agrocybe Aegerita) is found in tropical settings growing on Rosewoods.
Oxygen is an extremely effective antiseptic and disinfectant, but I would point out you are much better off using dilute solutions of hydrogen peroxide rather than straight ozone on woods. You can readily control the concentration of oxygen in any application. You can control the length of time of exposure. And you can easily achieve effective disinfection with successive cycles of application and drying.

Bob

Fildafluter - Most pathogenic organisms can only survive for a limited time outside of their host. Protozoa and parasites are an exception, as they often have a life cycle which has a significant stage in stagnant water. Their pathway into a host usually relies on coming into direct contact with said water, or by being bitten by a vector (insect) which contains it. So, unless you dredged your latest old wooden flute out of some black lagoon, these organisms can be ruled out. Pathogenic bacteria, (the prime source of infection from touching a contaminated object) again are happiest in their hosts, where it is an ideal 37 degrees C. for replication and log phase growth. Outside of the host, there are two environments in which bacteria can survive; a reservoir, where conditions are good enough for the bacteria to replicate, or a fomite, where the organism can survive, but not replicate. An old flute, which hasn't seen use for decades, is without doubt a fomite, as there is nothing that the organisms in question can feed on, and the environment is largely hostile to such organisms. On average, the vast majority of these organisms can survive in a fomite for no more than a few weeks. An exception to this rule would be spores of fungi such as Aspergillus which can survive and remain viable for up to 30 years. We all breath in a handful of Aspergillus spores each day, but fungal respiratory infections nearly only take hold in the immuno-compromised. So, it is highly unlikely that you'll catch a life threatening condition from playing an old wooden flute.

In regards to catching recent strains of Tuberculosis, you only need to be in the same room as an infected individual. Mycobacterium tuberculosis has a cellular doubling rate of approximately once every 24 hours, making it one of the slowest to replicate. It can therefore be managed if medical treatment is sought early.

Strewth.
In general my reaction is, why bother?

One thing to bear in mind is that folk, seemingly Americans especially, seem to think anything green must be mould. In fact, on old flutes with metal parts containing copper, it's usually verdigris. That is actually inimical to microbes, but it will leach through other deposits such as oil and grease and stain them. Green gunk on old flutes is common, needs to be cleaned away for sure, but is scarcely a significant health hazard. Black mould in the bores of unlined boxwood might be more of a concern, but although I am aware of it I've little experience of that.

Amongst all the several hundred old flutes I've handled, mostly cocuswood, virtually none have been mouldy. I suspect the tropical hardwoods are also fairly resistant/inimical to microbes too. I think in general flutes are pretty low risk in terms of contact transfer of bacterial or viral infections. Sure, if you're holding a flute petting zoo, a quick medical wipe of the lip contact area on the headjoint between players is a good idea, and immediately swapping flutes with someone with cold sores or a facial skin infection wouldn't be wise, but you simply aren't going to catch a cold by playing a flute which was played by someone else with a cold last week.... unless they had anthrax or ebola, don't worry about it! Too much paranoid fuss IMO.

an seanduine wrote:Ozone is extremely corrosive. It readily and energetically 'donates' its extra oxygen atom to any reactive substrate with which it comes into contact. This is essentially the text book definition for 'bleaching'. From my years of mushroom culture, I know several classes of fungi that specialize in using oxygenase enzymes to breakdown and 'digest' the lignin in wood. One, the Black Poplar mushroom (Agrocybe Aegerita) is found in tropical settings growing on Rosewoods.
Oxygen is an extremely effective antiseptic and disinfectant, but I would point out you are much better off using dilute solutions of hydrogen peroxide rather than straight ozone on woods. You can readily control the concentration of oxygen in any application. You can control the length of time of exposure. And you can easily achieve effective disinfection with successive cycles of application and drying.

Bob

Very interesting. My experiences with ozone are confined to medical ozone (pure O3 with no nitrogen) that I've used internally and externally. I suppose that because I've never found them to be corrosive to my flesh I just assumed they wouldn't do serious harm to wood!

Geoffrey Ellis wrote:I suppose that because I've never found them to be corrosive to my flesh I just assumed they wouldn't do serious harm to wood!

One is led to imagine a more ghoulish paradigm shift in flute material.

Nanohedron wrote:

Geoffrey Ellis wrote:I suppose that because I've never found them to be corrosive to my flesh I just assumed they wouldn't do serious harm to wood!

One is led to imagine a more ghoulish paradigm shift in flute material.

Exactly. Flutes made from dried meats? Hmmm....

Geoffrey Ellis wrote:Hmmm....

Or Yummm, depending.

Bone is of course the traditional material: http://andyletke.com/boneflute.html

jemtheflute wrote:...folk, seemingly Americans especially, seem to think anything green must be mould.

Well, I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with my nationality, but I admit that whenever I see someone with greenish-dyed hair, mold's the first thing that comes to mind.

Fildafluter wrote:Who is John Skelton?

Assuming that isn't a rhetorical question, here's yer man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr-qOnu1M-4

Fildafluter wrote:Mention of which isn't the yoke who runs our competitor ITM chatzine ...

Let us not make adversaries out of nothing. The Session is a neighbor worthy of our good will; Chiffers also happen to be members there, and I pop on over myself from time to time to grab a tune or two. C&F and The Session each fill particular niches, so I see the two more as wheels on the same vehicle.

That said, there's no helping the fact that you just can't please everyone.

Wind instruments are the Mysophobe’s bane.

oleorezinator wrote:Wind instruments are the Mysophobe’s bane.

No doubt. And unlike me, who has a case of Myso-can't-be-arsed.

Nanohedron wrote:

oleorezinator wrote:Wind instruments are the Mysophobe’s bane.

No doubt. And unlike me, who has a case of Myso-can't-be-arsed.