Embouchure and pitch

Post by **Nanohedron** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:50 am

This has been briefly touched upon on another thread, and has been on my mind lately, and so I'm hoping for input:

It seems that any flute I play sounds at a markedly sharper pitch than if another player has a go at the same given instrument (A440 pitch, cork in the right spot). I often have to extend the tuning slide as much as an inch (and a bit more, depending on meteorological vagaries), and get some dumbfounded looks for it! Flute response gets a bit difficult, esp. at the lowest notes.

I was discussing this with an expert fluter, and although it is true that each situation is unique and one has to deal accordingly, I have been wondering about
embouchure formation as a factor; I've tried a number of approaches (tight, relaxed, angle, etc.) and don't seem to see any appreciable difference. I am led to the conclusion that the configuration and volume of the mouth cavity, and perhaps the shape of one's lips, too, have a lot to do with this...but hope springs eternal! Unless I'm fated to be just one sharp fella (sorry

), I'd like to know if I've been missing something here, and what I might be able to do about it , if anything.

Thanks in advance for any input!

N, wants to get flattened

SuiZen · Post by **SuiZen** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:32 pm

Perhaps you need to train your embouchure, ear, and brain. I visualize a process where you play a "long" duration note, your ear hears it out of tune, your brain tells you to adjust your embouchure. Still out of tune, repeat the process. It becomes automatic with lots of practice.

I'd download the following tuner. You can watch the needle as you adjust your embouchure.

http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html

Play an A, and adjust your embouchure until A is in tune. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Keep practicing until you are in tune quicker. Practice with other notes. Also, try adjusting the headjoint in to you and away from you to optimize for your embouchure.

It may take many months of practice, but once you get it, you'll not easily loose it.

Bill

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SuiZen on 2003-03-02 14:21 ]</font>

eilam · Post by **eilam** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:12 pm

N. what about the air stream? Do you blow really hard?
I know that when making an instrument that has no slide, it's important for the maker to know.
Say the maker blows much harder then the person ordering the flute, for the maker it will play in pitch, but will end up playing to low for the buyer, and no way to shorten the flute, without sending it back to the maker.

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:49 pm

I had this same problem with my Dixon when I first received it. I think it can be the embouchure, and I now blow further into the hole and am noticeably less sharp. If you've ever played silver flute, a Hall crystal flute, or a PVC flute, all of these require an airstream more across the hole than down into it, so this was something I had to unlearn.

Like mentioned above, the computer tuner was a big help.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:02 pm

Thanks for the responses. I try to make as focused an airstream as possible, and go for more pressure than less (gotta be able to hear myself when sessions get loud!). I have found that when the embouchure is right, I don't need to "blow" so much as "breathe" the notes and can still get good volume if I need it; the problem has been in rolling the headjoint toward me: there's a "breaking point" where the notes start fluttering and I'll lose any tone altogether. Also, my pitch seems to be getting a bit sharper, and I want to do someting abt. that. At this time I'll assume I need more embouchure work and go about it from there. If there's any further input, please post! Any ideas will be welcome. I'm self-taught, have been playing steady for abt. six years, and have already learned much here at C&F. Great stuff.

Question for flutemakers: does the size of an embouchure hole affect pitch?

N, thanx

shoner · Post by **shoner** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:16 pm

Not a flute maker, but the larger the hole, the sharper the pitch.

George · Post by **George** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:55 pm

A few factors that will affect your pitch

Direction of your airstream -
Blowing your airstream straight out from your lips, across the embouchure hole, sharpens pitch and has a distinct sound. It also affects the shape of the embouchure, makeing your lips in line together, looking ovalish.
Blowing your airstream down into the flute, flattens the pitch, and has a distinct sound. It changes the shape, from an oval to a small slit because, the upper lip has to be slightly in front of the lower lip. For me that dropped my air requirement and gave me much more volume than I had before.

Angle of embouchure hole to lips -
Rotateing the headjoint away from you will bring up the pitch. Rotateing the headjoint in towards you will bring it down.

Amount of hole covered by lower lip -
Less hole covered sharper, more hole covered flatter.

Before playing next time, try makeing your embouchure without the flute and blowing air down on your chin. Then with the flute, try covering a fair amount of the embouchure, with it being at a 90 degree angle to your face, and blowing your air down into the flute. I would try to see how flat with air direction and headjoint rotation I could make it, then find the spot I liked the sound best.

Best of luck,
-George Grasso
Soquel, California

SuiZen · Post by **SuiZen** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 4:09 pm

I think all the suggestions are right on the mark.

Just one point of clarification, although it may go without saying. When I mentioned adjusting the headjoint, I meant find the best position for you, but do not change it by moving the flute while playing.

The suggested alignment is that a center line through the finger holes should pass through the center of the embouchure hole. However, this may not work for you, but may be something to work toward as your embouchure develops.

Bill

rama · Post by **rama** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 4:41 pm

Great suggestions all around!

Something also to consider is that you stated your concern is that you blow sharp relative to other players who blow into the same flute. Or more accurately, you are concerned with the 'looks' you get. One possibility: You may not be the one with a problem. So what if you have to pull the slide out a little further than someone else - big deal. I usually do too.
Just so long as you are in tune with yourself and whom ever you are playing. That is all that really matters.
If all else fails eat alot of garlic....rama

pdunn · Post by **pdunn** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:14 am

Hello Nano,
I have the opposite problem. I've been playing a long while(seven or eight years), and I tend to play softer (not in terms of loudness but pitch) than some players. I have tried all kinds of embouchres (or mouth positions and head joint positions) and I prefer the tone I get a certain way. My lehart sounds best when the slide is close to all the way in. I was worried when I got this flute that the pitch was low or my lip was not tight enough. I am always relatively in tune (are flute players ever in tune?). I kinda agree with your thoughts about mouth and lips of a certain player. When I play a friends Murray flute (by the way the only flute I'd rather have then a lehart, and that includes Olwells and McGee's I've tried, sorry for the heresy), I pull out more than on a lehart BUT NOT AS FAR AS HE DOES. I recently saw a picture of several players playing leharts and the slides were all the waY in. I don't know if I'm any help here, but I guess I'm trying to say what works works. I've had great players pick up my flute and need to pull out the slide a bit farther than I would (on a normal day). Find the right flute and work till you love it. (I played a terrible flute for years and got by, I guess I still need to figure this new one out). By the way, thanks for your help on my question about a new head joint. I'm worried that if I get one without a slide I'll need to change the way I play all over again.
thanks,
Patrick

Doirlinn · Post by **Doirlinn** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:41 am

Nano, (makes me want to say "Nanoo, nanoo!")

I was having a related worry the first few days with my new Cotter that's very definitely still training me in, and will be doing so for the foreseeable future. Every note I played was well flat of where it should be. I would be playing away with a tune in my head and put on a recording to play along to and discover that all was not well. For me it was definitely the lip placement thing... I had to bring the flute a good distance higher on my lip, and voila! suddenly I was in tune. (George's 'amount of hole covered by lower lip' bit) So maybe you already play very high on the lip... or it could be one of the other 10 issues mentioned

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:07 am

Nanohedron wrote:I have found that when the embouchure is right, I don't need to "blow" so much as "breathe" the notes and can still get good volume if I need it; the problem has been in rolling the headjoint toward me: there's a "breaking point" where the notes start fluttering and I'll lose any tone altogether

If you're rolling in on the headjoint (i.e. moving the embouchure hole closer to you than the finger holes), then that will make the flute play sharper for you. Try lining up the embouchure hole with the finger holes, and see if that flattens you up any. Also, if you're blowing hard to increase your volume for sessions, but not putting all that extra air into the flute, then that may be sharpening you as well. Ideally, you want to direct much if not all of your airstream into the flute. Little or no air should be lost over the top of the embouchure hole. To find out if you're losing air over the top, play a good strong lower-octave G, and take your free hand and place it directly across the embouchure hole from your lips. If you feel a breeze, you're not putting enough of your air into the flute. Another way of knowing that you're doing it right: When you hit those low Es and Ds (and even the second octave Ds and Es), you should feel the airstream moving under your fingers. It's the quantity of air moving through the flute that gives you volume, so when you're putting all your air into the flute rather than losing it to the atmosphere, you'll find that you don't really need to blow all that hard to get good volume. Also, you'll have much better control of pitch, tone, etc, if you're not blowing yourself dizzy...

Post by **Nanohedron** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 11:38 am

Buiochas le mo chairde ceoltoiri (someday I'll figger out the accent mark thing)!

Lots of great info, greatly appreciated, and reinforcing my belief that the flute is not unlike a cat: all factors being equal, you have to negotiate with it for results, and your mileage may vary.

To cover one point in my first post: no real concern abt. the reactions of others to the slide thing; it was more about responsiveness in the lowest notes as there does seem to be a difference. Meanwhile, I have embarked upon a new fitness regimen, lip push-ups being key.

Now I gotta work out that avatar thing: as a fluter, would Krishna do?...........Naw.

N, w/ lotsa goodies to take home

Ronbo · Post by **Ronbo** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:00 pm

A very apt description of dealing with both flutes and cats.

BMFW · Post by **BMFW** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:02 am

George wrote:

Before playing next time, try makeing your embouchure without the flute and blowing air down on your chin. Then with the flute, try covering a fair amount of the embouchure, with it being at a 90 degree angle to your face, and blowing your air down into the flute. I would try to see how flat with air direction and headjoint rotation I could make it, then find the spot I liked the sound best.

George,

I think that's the single best piece of advice I've read. I've been trying to "overhaul" my tone for some time now, and your tip of blowing down towards your chin made a huge difference when I tried it. It's quite unforgiving - by that I mean it's easy to lose your tone but when you do get it right you get a nice growly tone and a nice balanced upper register. Thanks for the tip.

Cheers

Graham