3rd Octave Fingering with Michael Cronally Polymer Flute

[Ingheanrae]

I'm relatively new to ITM but not to the Boehm flute but would appreciate some advice from someone who is a seasoned user of the M&E Polymer keyless flute. The flute is in tune with itself pretty well in the first two octaves with a little embouchure tweaking. Although I do find that the tuning slide is only pulled out by 3mm.

I've looked at various threads and web pages for the 3rd octave fingerings on irish wooden flute and it seems there are different fingerings for different makes of flute. With tuner to hand I have tried some of the 3rd octave fingerings suggested elsewhere but have got quite different notes from the flute. I've increased air speed and tightened embouchure with some success and this is the best fingering I've found.

a slightly sharp C nat using X0X XX0
C#6 using X0X X00 or 000 XXX
I can get a D6 0XX 000(slightly flat) , XXX XXX or by overblowing XXX (both almost bang on in tune)
A slightly flat E6 using XX0 0X0
No F# using any fingering
A pretty spot-on G6 using X0X 0X0
No A6 or B6

Now these seem to be quite unfriendly fingerings for playing at any speed so I would like to hear from anyone who has one of these flutes and has identified some sensible fingering and embouchure combination for the third octave....please for the sake of my poor family .

Thank you in anticipation

[megapop]

Hi Ingheanrae, I'm not exactly seasoned, but I think for a really feasible 3rd octave you need keys, especially the E♭ one... anyway, here are my fingerings on the M&E:

• Cnat oxo xxo (xox xxo is actually way flat on my flute... strange!)
• C♯ oxx xoo or ooo xxx
• D oxx ooo
• E xxo xxo (very similar intonation to your fingering, I just like it because it's closer to the 1st/2nd E fingering... but I struggle with both to get a good tone here)
• F♯ xxx xox (works pretty well, actually)
• G xox ooo
• A oxx xxo (only works when I have a particularly good embouchure day, though )
• B nope

As for "unfriendly fingerings"... well, you say you play the Böhm flute. Its 3rd octave isn't exactly friendly compared to the 1st/2nd octave either, is it? And there you even have all the keys. Those higher spheres just are a bit more tricky, I'm afraid...

[Ingheanrae]

Thank you very much for getting back so quickly. I'll give yours a try. I perhaps just need to work on the embouchure a bit more. I must admit to having difficulties getting above A6 on the Boehm. What do you think of your M&E flute by the way?

[accordionstu]

• Cnat oxo xxo (xox xxo is actually way flat on my flute... strange!)
• C♯ oxx xoo or ooo xxx
• D oxx ooo
• E xxo xxo (very similar intonation to your fingering, I just like it because it's closer to the 1st/2nd E fingering... but I struggle with both to get a good tone here)
• F♯ xxx xox (works pretty well, actually)
• G xox ooo
• A oxx xxo (only works when I have a particularly good embouchure day, though )
• B nope

(

I agree with megapop with a few differences.
C Natural 0X0 XXX
F# XOX XOX
It may be that the M&E was designed to play stronger in the lower and middle regsters to suit ITM. Although I play the high A and B notes on High Pitch Flutes, I have never played any ITM tune that required these notes.

[jemtheflute]

Have you seen this exploration of what can be feasible on a keyless flute?https://app.box.com/s/452bd65e8780ad8c3b1c

I have an M&E polymer keyless here which had a clearly original execrable embouchure when it arrived. Oxidised it up and it now plays pretty well.
I find these high fingerings over the break into the 3Rd 8be work well enough:
Cnat - oxx xxo or oxo xxx
C# - oxx xoo
D - oxx ooo
Eb - nothing workable
E - xxo oxx
Fnat - xxo oxo or oxo oxo (sort of!)
F# - xxx xox or xox xxx
G - xox ooo
G# - oox oox
A - oxx xxo
Bb - oxo xoo

The last 5 are pretty good, as are C# and D. The rest are not wonderful but usable.

[Feadoggie]

Is it worth inquiring about which model M&E the OP is interested in? I have both the more recent R&R derived model and the older M&E Original design here. The bores and hole layouts are rather different. They do play differently as well. Venting varies between them for some notes.. I personally do not venture into the 3rd octave much. The fingerings suggested in the chart on the Cronnolly's website only cover the first two octaves - so you're in un-charted territory, literally. Good on you if you play up there.

Just a thought.

I have an M&E polymer keyless here which had a clearly original execrable embouchure when it arrived.

Yeah, there's that to consider too. The embouchure cuts on the several M&E's I've owned have been a bit different from each other. But all have been playable - across two octaves.

Feadoggie

[Ingheanrae]

Thank you to everyone who has replied. I purchased my M&E flute only a month ago so guess that it is of recent construction. In terms of holes the largest is the E fingering hole and the next largest the Fsharp with the B and A holes being of a similar six and the G and low D holes being smaller. There are two large vent holes on the foot and it is in 3 sections with the head section having a slide. I think based on the website information that it is the R&R derived model. I think I will probably stick to the two octaves for most things based on what I am finding out from more experienced ITM players. I am a real novice in the folk world!

[jemtheflute]

Just spotted a typically bizarre phone-typing autocorrect fail which slipped my eye....

I have an M&E polymer keyless here which had a clearly original execrable embouchure when it arrived. Oxidised it up and it now plays pretty well.

I "fixed" it up, of course!

[jemtheflute]

In terms of holes the largest is the E fingering hole and the next largest the Fsharp with the B and A holes being of a similar size and the G and low D holes being smaller.!

Just to try to be helpful ( ), tone-holes are always (or should be) named for the note they actually produce/define (by opening the tube and defining a sounding length), not for the note produced by fingering them. Thus the (6th) hole under R3 (D finger) is the E hole, that under R2 (E finger) the F# hole, and so on. NB this is different (one step higher) from fingering names which remain as one would expect - the combination of fingers which produce the desired pitch. Things are a little more complicated with keyed holes in that keys are named for the note they produce when operated, whether they are closed- or open-standing, but the hole upon which they operate is still named for the tone it produces when open. Thus e.g. a closed-standing Eb key for R4, when operated, opens a hole which provides an Eb - so both key and hole are named thus. But on a Böhm flute where most keys are open standing..... e.g. the key under R3 is open standing over the hole which provides the tone E, but when operated closes it to provide a D, so is a D key in just the way that on an open holed instrument the "D finger" closes the E hole......... Stick to the rule(s) and you should (?!?!) be understood!

[Ingheanrae]

Jemtheflute - Thank you for picking up on my very own naming convention - I didn't know how best to describe those holes and I do now. Much appreciated.