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So lately I've noticed that most of the really experienced flute makers use long stretches of node-less bamboo to make their flutes - Erik the flutemaker noted that the bamboo used to make his Egyptian Flute is rare due to the "long, node-less sections" required to make them. Then I came across this video in which Billy Miller says that "some of the worst playing flutes you'll find have nodes" at around 2:38 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFRJXOwaI3w

So, why is that? I always thought that if you just took out the nodes you can turn just about any bamboo stalk into a flute. Why do flute makers tend to use pieces without nodes in making their instruments?

The nodes are not easily worked down to the inside diameter of the rest of the tube so they result in a constriction in the bore at the node. That messes with timbre and tuning. Where the constriction occurs in the bore determines how and how much the tuning is effected. You can test that out on any cylindrical flute by inserting a properly sized ring inside the bore and moving the position around.

Welcome to the C&F flute forum.

Feadoggie

Oh alright, that makes sense, especially considering how tough nodes can be. Thank you very much for both the response and the welcome!

Feadoggie wrote:The nodes are not easily worked down to the inside diameter of the rest of the tube so they result in a constriction in the bore at the node. That messes with timbre and tuning. Where the constriction occurs in the bore determines how and how much the tuning is effected. You can test that out on any cylindrical flute by inserting a properly sized ring inside the bore and moving the position around.

Welcome to the C&F flute forum.

Feadoggie

Basically it's just more work to get the bore smooth and fluent. My goal is to always find nodeless lengths, but it's not always easy. So I usually settle for a node closer to the end so the toneholes are not compromised. Most of my flutes are conical and having the node closer to the end is easily remedied.

Feadoggie wrote:The nodes are not easily worked down to the inside diameter of the rest of the tube so they result in a constriction in the bore at the node. That messes with timbre and tuning. Where the constriction occurs in the bore determines how and how much the tuning is effected. You can test that out on any cylindrical flute by inserting a properly sized ring inside the bore and moving the position around.

Welcome to the C&F flute forum.

Feadoggie

I created sanding tubes out of wood dowel and various drill bits that I adhere sandpaper to - works like a charm

Also, when you shape the inside of a bamboo tube, you're cutting into and exposing end grain, greatly altering its moisture-absorbtion qualities. A natural inter-node stretch of bamboo will have no (or close to no) end grain exposed, except at the ends and toneholes.

It is the opposite in shakuhachi flutes which are supposed to have seven nodes, including the ones on the root section. The ones with less go for much less money. Much less.

kmag wrote:It is the opposite in shakuhachi flutes which are supposed to have seven nodes, including the ones on the root section. The ones with less go for much less money. Much less.

Seven in general, or are they all supposed to line up at specific points along the tube? Is the body of a shakuhachi shaped to a uniform cylindar, or do the nodes make for a complex internal bore?

kmag wrote:It is the opposite in shakuhachi flutes which are supposed to have seven nodes, including the ones on the root section. The ones with less go for much less money. Much less.

Shakuhachi is a very different animal - the nodes play a key part in the overall sound of the instrument. I know in some types of Shakuhachi the maker will leave chunks of the node intact for a rougher tone, more whispy microtones. Technically these one piece
flutes are 'Hocchiku' not Shakuhachi.

s1m0n wrote:

kmag wrote:It is the opposite in shakuhachi flutes which are supposed to have seven nodes, including the ones on the root section. The ones with less go for much less money. Much less.

Seven in general, or are they all supposed to line up at specific points along the tube?

No expert here, but this is what I've gleaned: In precision bore shaks the nodes are relegated overall to the realm of visual appeal, but in the case of hotchiku (natural, unlined bore shaks), the nodes will sometimes be used internally for acoustic reasons. Since precise node location ultimately cannot be controlled but is the result of natural growth, beyond experience and expertise there's no hard-and-fast about how and why the maker employs them in their effect on tonal aesthetics; best as I can gather, especially with the hotchiku there's always a certain amount of serendipity the maker must play with, to be used to advantage according to the opportunities it provides. Here are pics of a seven-node and an eight-node shak:




The uppermost node is at the mouthpiece. As can be seen, offset finger holes are an option. As these are one-piece instruments and I see no embouchure insert, I assume they are in fact hotchiku, which is the original bare-bones design prototypical to the now usually two-piece, lined-interior shakuhachi which comes with an embouchure insert, typically of horn or bone.

s1m0n wrote:Is the body of a shakuhachi shaped to a uniform cylindar, or do the nodes make for a complex internal bore?

Ideally, overall the bore is conical like the trad flute, but it stops at a "choke point" toward the bottom and flares back out again. Using nodes for additional bore eccentricity is an option, but in precision bore shaks these needs are usually met instead by filler material called "ji" which is often lacquer, and other materials are also used. The bore may be smooth or rough depending on the tone desired. I read that some prize an elliptical bore, but I can only assume that this was meant in cross-section.

Good discussion.

There's is a lot to be gained, I think, from traditional Shakuhachi design experience and construction which can be useful in making whistles and other simple system flutes. One site I keep referring back to is this one. http://www.navaching.com/shaku/shakuindex.html Might make for interesting reading if you haven't already found it. Doesn't go too very deep into the physics either. Enjoy.

Feadoggie

Do these instruments come under the same category as Kavals ? Should they be relegated to the "Outer Limits" of
The World/Folk Winds ???

Only if your shoes are too tight. The topic started out on transverse flutes and nodes. If the topic started out on shakuhachi, then yes, it would belong in the World/Folk Winds forum.

Here at C&F we have a longstanding tradition of not only tolerating but even celebrating thread drift (and I'm heartened to see you embracing our ways so readily, yourself ), and believe me, this ain't nuthin'. By our standards shakuhachis and their nodes is still arguably on-topic.

Also thread drift usually signals that the original topic has run out of steam. But here I think it might be a bit early for that, yet.

So. How about them nodes, folks?

Egyptian Ney, Japanese Shakuhachi - Drift ??? Guess it depends on WHO's doing the drifting.
I do, however, recognize double standards and hypocrisy when I see it !
How do you think the Bulgarians, Romanians, Turks, Hungarians, Albanians, Macedonians, not forgetting the Serbs, ( and countless shepherds ) will feel about the current state of affairs on Chiff & Fipple. The sheep will definitely feel depressed, their fleece may fall out with the worry, and it gets really cold in the Carpathians in Winter. Oh Dear, I appear to be drifting................

One word, 2TOOTS: Decaf.