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Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:39 pm
by voggy_dog
benhall.1 wrote:Well, I have the flute with me now. I'll play it a bit for the next few days. Who's after me? I presume there's at least one other European? Anyway, voggie-dog, do you know who's next? I can post it off next week, once I've had a good go at it. As others have said, this is really extraordinarily good of you to do this.

My initial thought is as it was from listening to Jem's clip playing it. I don't agree that the tuning is "acceptable". I thought it was way off in your clip, Jem, and I find that I can't do any better. :D The worst issue is the C and C#. The C is flat and the C# is simply a very slightly sharp C. So much so that flutini didn't recognise that I was playing any C#s at all. (I was.)

Anyway, I'll post more in a while. I have found an interesting pictorial comparison ...
If there are no more Europeans, then MTGuru is the first priority stateside.

After MTGuru, I have Pat Plunkett and Rob Sharer. No one else has asked yet.

Thanks again to Jem for sharing his well considered opinion (with media nonetheless). Kudos Jem!

I'm still kinda new to this, but won't some of the notes tune differently depending on how they are played? i.e., angle of attack, embouchure, breath pressure? So that it may come in tune under one style of playing, but not another?

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:44 pm
by benhall.1
voggy_dog wrote:I'm still kinda new to this, but won't some of the notes tune differently depending on how they are played? i.e., angle of attack, embouchure, breath pressure? So that it may come in tune under one style of playing, but not another?
I think that's right. But, even so, I think there are acceptable limits. I'll go back and have another listen to Jem's clips when I consider this flute again over the next few days.

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:28 pm
by jemtheflute
This was precisely why I did the tuner clip. I think that shows the McCarty's C and C# to be quite good, especially for a keyless flute - these notes notoriously involve unsatisfactory compromises. The A and B in both octaves were worse, though not unusually so. Taking the number of off-target notes and the degree by which they are off and comparing the overall impression with the equivalent impressions of the other flutes I sampled, the McCarty doesn't do badly. The Rose and the nach Meyer have very similar amounts of deviation from ET. The PFLO is drastically worse and the Tipple rather better. FWIW my R&R isn't all that much better. If someone wants to do pitch analyses of the tune clips.....

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:45 pm
by Nanohedron
voggy_dog wrote:No one else has asked yet.
Actually, I have offered (this is the second or third time I've been forgotten on this issue - what must people think of me? :cry: :wink: ), but I'm content to kick back with some popcorn and watch the show if we have enough Stateside takers who are committed, decent fluteplayers or who know good ones who are willing to assess it.

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:30 am
by voggy_dog
Nanohedron wrote:
voggy_dog wrote:No one else has asked yet.
Actually, I have offered (this is the second or third time I've been forgotten on this issue - what must people think of me? :cry: :wink: ), but I'm content to kick back with some popcorn and watch the show if we have enough Stateside takers who are committed, decent fluteplayers or who know good ones who are willing to assess it.
Did you PM me? If it was you just posted in the forum I may have overlooked you. My bad. Of course, you're on the list.

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:03 am
by Nanohedron
voggy_dog wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
voggy_dog wrote:No one else has asked yet.
Actually, I have offered (this is the second or third time I've been forgotten on this issue - what must people think of me? :cry: :wink: ), but I'm content to kick back with some popcorn and watch the show if we have enough Stateside takers who are committed, decent fluteplayers or who know good ones who are willing to assess it.
Did you PM me? If it was you just posted in the forum I may have overlooked you. My bad. Of course, you're on the list.
No, no PM. Sorry about that; I didn't think to go that route, for some reason. So I guess my bad outbads your bad. :)

But as I said, if this review has what seems like enough Stateside takers, that is fine; otherwise just put me onto the back of the list as a contingency plan in case I am actually needed. :)

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:00 pm
by voggy_dog
Nanohedron wrote: But as I said, if this review has what seems like enough Stateside takers, that is fine; otherwise just put me onto the back of the list as a contingency plan in case I am actually needed. :)
I think between those on the tour already, we should reach a concensus (of sorts). However, if you just have a morbid curiosity about the (in)famous McCarty flute, be my guest. Since I got the Burns flute, I'm not missing the McCarty so much and there's no real hurry to get it back.

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:20 pm
by Nanohedron
No morbid curiosity on my part. I'll go make some more popcorn. :)

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:53 pm
by Rob Sharer
benhall.1 wrote: My initial thought is as it was from listening to Jem's clip playing it. I don't agree that the tuning is "acceptable". I thought it was way off in your clip, Jem, and I find that I can't do any better. :D The worst issue is the C and C#. The C is flat and the C# is simply a very slightly sharp C. So much so that flutini didn't recognise that I was playing any C#s at all. (I was.)
I do look forward to verifying this in person, but I too found the tuning on the clips to be poxy. I know for a fact that Jem is used to horsing antique flutes into tune, fair play, but even that skillset didn't seem to be enough to right the McCarty's ship.


Meanwhile...
voggy_dog wrote: I'm still kinda new to this, but won't some of the notes tune differently depending on how they are played? i.e., angle of attack, embouchure, breath pressure? So that it may come in tune under one style of playing, but not another?
That is absolutely the case, VoDo (better?). Some flutes just plain suit a particular style of play, and not so much another. I've seen a classical player utterly fail to bring my Olwell into tune, and I know damn well it wasn't the flute.

That said, an experienced player with a flexible embouchure ought to be able to change the particulars of their blow to find the right approach. Any flute will require some embouchure change going up and down the octaves, or for the low D; this is part and parcel of successfully negotiating the conical-bore flute. What you ought not end up with, however, is a wonky tuning scheme that is at odds with itself just within a single octave.

A flute intended for a beginner ought to make a pleasing tone with minimal effort, and ought not demand that the player horse every singe note into tune with embouchure changes. There are plenty of easy to blow, in-tune flutes available to the beginner for a reasonable price; these flutes form the standard by which I judge different offerings for playability and value-for-money.


Rob

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:16 pm
by skyspirit
Rob Sharer wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:


Rob
I just like your Monaghan Jig Rob. Sorry to be off topic. Nice. very nice. :)

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:12 am
by benhall.1
Firstly, apologies for the delay in writing about this. Anyway, here I go ...

Jem provided an excellent write-up at the start of this thread, with his usual very high standard of photos to go with it. But I do find myself disagreeing with a lot of his conclusions. I was ever so tempted to take them point by point, but we’d never get done if I did that. :wink:

Usual caveat at the start – I’ve been playing flute only since I bought one from Jem on 30 December 2008, so somewhat under 3 years. I think I’m progressing reasonably well and, in particular, my control is good enough to be able to play in tune on the several flutes which I own, which differ widely in playing characteristics. So take the following with however large a pinch of salt you deem appropriate.

I don’t agree that this is “a tolerably playable instrument”. I thought from Jem’s own clips that the intonation alone put it outside what I understand by that description. But Jem manages to get it closer in tune than I can. Jem and I have discussed this flute a bit off-forum, and I have pointed out that I don’t believe there is any variety of C on this instrument. By which I mean that it’s impossible (for me at least, and going by Jem’s clips, for him too) to get either a C natural or a C sharp in either octave (except as described below) that’s close to being in tune.

Jem referred me back to his clip with the tuner. There does seem to be an anomaly there – doesn’t look too bad. But I think I have the explanation. Jem tuned the flute to G. But, on this flute, G is horribly flat. Note that just about every other note shows as being very sharp on Jem’s tuner clip, whereas the C# in the first octave shows as ‘in tune’. This only proves that it’s as badly flat as the G, since that’s the note Jem tuned to. I’ll come back to second octave C#, because I think that’s a separate issue.

The second point about the tuning is this: compared with any other flute I’ve tried, it is possible on this flute to get – deliberately or otherwise – a huge range of pitch out of many of the notes. The problem with that for any but the best players is, in my opinion, that you can’t actually control it. Again, I think that is shown in Jem’s clip where he tries to play tunes on this flute. Jem is clearly a way better player than me, with decades of experience (about 6 isn’t it Jem? :wink: ) behind him, but even he can’t control the intonation on this flute.

For the C# in the second octave, Jem probably (confirm? :poke: ) used a fingering which many players on this forum probably don’t use: OXX XOO. That fingering is very useful, but does tend to give quite a sharp C# on a lot of flutes. It’s this that I think is correcting the pitch of the C# in the second octave.

I can’t quite account for Jem’s apparently in tune (compared with the rest of the flute) C nat. All I can say is that I can’t do it. Mind you, although there aren’t too many C nats in Jem’s tunes as played on this flute, if you listen carefully, the tuning on them ain’t too great.

Now, what sort of instrument is this? Well, I can say for sure that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. None whatsoever.

Here is a link to a certain flute:

http://www.vellumhead.com/wind_products ... -0-0-103-1

Please, if you would, compare the pictures of the flute as posted by Jem with the picture of the flute with the product code VIF-005. Then, if you would, compare Jem’s picture of the case with the case pictured with VIF-003.

Now note that I can buy that flute, brand new and complete with case, for $25. There are discounts on top of that if I buy multiple quantities. Annoyingly, I can’t now find the exact flute posted on the net alongside that quoted price – you have to either ask at the Vellum Head site for the price (which I’m not going to do) or find another site, like AliBaba.com which has had this same flute at some point but which I can’t find now. Still, seriously, the price is $25, and AliBaba.com still has very similar, though not identical at the moment, flutes at that price. I would suggest not paying more.

One thing I absolutely must point out, not least from a safety point of view, is the case construction. The dividers inside seem to be plywood, or possibly balsa. Anyway, they are held in place by a line of very sharp tacks. But, when you take the flute out, one or more of these dividers tends to collapse and sort of fall sideways. If, at that point, you put your fingers in the case, you will immediately get a row of puncture holes in your fingers from the tacks. You can’t see them poking through the velour.

Lastly, thank you very much to voggy_dog for sending this flute on its world tour. I hope you don’t think I’ve been too mean, Mr Dog – just calling it as I see it. I thank you sincerely for your service to flutedom and to enquiring minds in doing this for us.

The flute is going to Mr Guru Sir in the post tomorrow.

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:09 pm
by Rob Sharer
Ouch, babe.


I knew darn well Jem was horsing that thing into tune because he could.
And it STILL warn't all that great.



Rob

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:20 pm
by Akiba
Rob Sharer wrote:Ouch, babe.


I knew darn well Jem was horsing that thing into tune because he could.
And it STILL warn't all that great.



Rob
:lol: I like the use of the word "horse" as a verb, to horse something..."horse that thang". :thumbsup:

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:37 pm
by Denny
du'n everybody?

Re: McCarty Unofficial Tour-Flute Review Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:43 pm
by Doug_Tipple
Denny wrote:du'n everybody?
Horses, now you're speaking Denny's language. He does a lot of staring at the back end of horses on a daily basis. My dad grew up plowing with horses on the farm, and if you wanted to go into town, you had to hitch up a horse to the wagon. He used to tell us boys, "Quit horsing around!", as three boys are apt to do growing up in a small house.