This Old Flute - nach Meyer

[ImNotIrish]

Okay,

Here are a couple of clips I recorded into Tartini. I haven't figured out how to get the chart printed out (sorry). I converted the files to mp3s to save some space. Maybe one of you can run it through Tartini again and get the chart. BTW, where do I get the lowdown on how to use the program?
Arbo

http://www.box.net/shared/skvzli9gcc
http://www.box.net/shared/7rte87jk8o


BTW, I find it an incredible struggle to play though the tunes on this instrument. And I also struggled with trying to leave out ornamentation. So,
be forgiving (the recording surely is not!).

[groxburgh]

Why are you assuming that a modern flute is basically OK?

I am sceptical type of person (e.g. concern over the relevance of the tails in the pitch distribution) and given that I am applying a set of lips and a brain that have only been into fluting for a year to a recently made flute from a maker who seems to carry much respect on this forum I am happy to give the flute any benefit of the doubt.

I don't think you're being nearly skeptical enough as regards makers and flute tuning. Some well repected makers seem to have a very different idea than others about tuning.
Cheers
Graeme

[groxburgh]

Okay,

Here are a couple of clips I recorded into Tartini. I haven't figured out how to get the chart printed out (sorry). I converted the files to mp3s to save some space. Maybe one of you can run it through Tartini again and get the chart. BTW, where do I get the lowdown on how to use the program?
Arbo

http://www.box.net/shared/skvzli9gcc
http://www.box.net/shared/7rte87jk8o


BTW, I find it an incredible struggle to play though the tunes on this instrument. And I also struggled with trying to leave out ornamentation. So,
be forgiving (the recording surely is not!).

Send me a pm if you're having trouble working out how to do this, and I'll sort it out for you. Meanwhile here's a plot of the 2 clips above.
http://www.box.net/shared/vc0hxfjksw
http://www.box.net/shared/eb51o5vc44


cheers
Graeme

[david_h]

Graeme

I like to think I am be realistic. As I understand it the holes can't be where they ought to be so it's going to be a compromise, and different makers may make different compromises, maybe based on the local playing style (or maybe how hot they keep there workshop when testing ?)

Some players seem to like to play more forcefully that others, some cover more or less of the embouchure hole. So if the venting of all the notes varies are they going to get the same intonation profile ?

I really don't know how in tune with itself my flute is but until someone comes up with the International Standard Flute Player to bundle with RTTA I am not convinced it is going to tell me.

What it does tell me is that in tune A famous musician Y is playing note Z slightly flat of equal temperament but in tune B he is not doing so. And that when I try to play along with his recording I am tending to follow him in that but with limited succes. And that when I play tune C my C#s are 30 cents flat whereas most of the time they are as lot closer than that - provisionally I am putting that down to my head and/or ears, or maybe the tune, but not my lips or my flute.

[Maihcol]

I've not done anything to the flute yet, still bothering about the evaluation systems. There's no point collecting data if you are not darn sure what it means.

Carey

I find the "ZeroA4" function on Polygraph to be very useful if you're going to be doing a lot of different plots, saving them and visually comparing them afterwards. It pins A4 on each plot to the zero line so you've got the same reference system for all plots instead of having each of them floating about wherever you happened to blow the tune that particular time. Tartini locks up for me too but works ok as long as I reboot it after every two plots.

Garry

[ImNotIrish]

Thanks Graeme,
but I really don't know what that's telling me.

Arbo

[groxburgh]

Thanks Graeme,
but I really don't know what that's telling me.

Arbo

It is telling you that this flute when you played it is like many other simple system flutes in that compared to equal temperament at A440: The F#s are flat; the As and Bs Cnat are sharp, . Unusually the Ds are sharp.

What it doesn't tell you is if this is bad, or good. It does tell you that you could alter it easily enough if you wanted to get it closer.

Cheers
Graeme

[groxburgh]

Graeme

I like to think I am be realistic. As I understand it the holes can't be where they ought to be so it's going to be a compromise, and different makers may make different compromises, maybe based on the local playing style (or maybe how hot they keep there workshop when testing ?)

Some players seem to like to play more forcefully that others, some cover more or less of the embouchure hole. So if the venting of all the notes varies are they going to get the same intonation profile ?

I really don't know how in tune with itself my flute is but until someone comes up with the International Standard Flute Player to bundle with RTTA I am not convinced it is going to tell me.

Keeping my opinions out of it here are some facts I've observed or not observed with using RTTA on lots of players and lots of flutes (both old and by modern makers).

I have observed some modern makers flutes have very different tuning to others.

I have not observed anyone who claimed to be able to blow a flute into tune actually do so. I have observed that some players who claimed they could blow a flute into tune could not in fact do so. They were blowing long notes into tune but not the short ones.

I have not observed any meaningful difference with different players except when they are trying to force particular notes up or down. Perhaps the "International Standard Flute Player" you want to bundle with RTTA already exists?

I have observed several players of flutes made by a well respected modern maker being very dissatisfied with the tuning on their flute after many years of playing it. The tuning problems they could hear and describe being exactly the ones we could see and quantify using RTTA. However the problems they were having were mostly fixable with a bit of wax. I do not know how this has affected the tone or any other aspect of the flute.

Cheers
Graeme

[ImNotIrish]

Thanks Graeme,
but I really don't know what that's telling me.

Arbo

It is telling you that this flute when you played it is like many other simple system flutes in that compared to equal temperament at A440: The F#s are flat; the As and Bs Cnat are sharp, . Unusually the Ds are sharp.

What it doesn't tell you is if this is bad, or good. It does tell you that you could alter it easily enough if you wanted to get it closer.

Cheers
Graeme

Thank you Graeme for taking the time to explain. One other question...How do I go about correcting the problem? Which holes do I add wax to? I assume I need to enlarge the R2 hole for the flat F#? By the way, the keys are off for the C# and C nat holes.


Arbo

[groxburgh]

Thank you Graeme for taking the time to explain. One other question...How do I go about correcting the problem? Which holes do I add wax to? I assume I need to enlarge the R2 hole for the flat F#? By the way, the keys are off for the C# and C nat holes.
Arbo

To lower the pitch of any note, you will put wax in the first open hole. So to lower B wax L2, to lower A wax L3. Doing this is easy, and it's reversible so there's no permanant alteration to the flute. Raising a note like F# by enlarging R2 is however a bit more drastic. Having F# low is not nearly such a big issue as having A and B high. Remember that justD intonation has F# at about -15 cents compared to D. Get the notes that are too high tamed first and then think a lot about if you really want to enlarge a hole. See http://www.business.otago.ac.nz/infosci ... eeswax.htm for more details on using wax to make your flute easier to play in tune.

Regarding C and C#. If you're not using the C key then you can't have both "in tune" unless you have a very small holed flute like a baroque traverso or a thumbhole in place of the C key. Typically on a keyless flute Cnat will be high when cross fingered and C# will be low. There's not enough of either note in the tunes you played to make an informed comment about your flute.

Cheers
Graeme

[david_h]

Thanks Graeme, very interesting.
At the moment my main problem with short notes is getting them all into the available time slots in the correct places !

I think it a pity we can't discuss intontation details of the playing of well known musicians because it would answer the often asked question of 'how close is close enough ', and reveal a lot about what makes something sound good. I have a hunch that when people says that so-and-so gets good tone out of that flute (or has a good singing voice) a lot of it has to do with note-by-note intonation choices.

I like the answer to 'how close is close enough' for group playing that we were given in a post above. The state of training of my ears is such that I can be all over the place when playing solo and not notice what a tuner tells me but I am fairly sensitive to things not being right when playing with a recording and my lips have started to go into automatic to try to fix it. But on a finer level I don't think I can distinguish between the tone of a note and slight beating of the higher harmonics with those of another instrument.

If I want to get into flute whitling I will buy one of those Pakistani jobs. If I mess it up I will plug the holes, turn it over and start again. I wonder how many attempts I can get out of one piece of wood ?

[Terry McGee]

The insistence against publishing RTTA analyses of living players and living makers (without their approval) is probably largely mine. I felt it wasn't fair to hang players and makers out to dry given that they didn't have this technology to guide them when they made and selected those flutes.

It's a decree that probably has a finite lifetime, but I don't know that that lifetime should be. On the one hand, I feel makers and players need a little time to adapt to a new world in which we can measure intonation as we play. Given it may take many iterations to overcome the problems RTTA reveals, I'd be thinking a year isn't too quick. On the other side of the equation though, I recognise that players (consumers) have a right to protection, and the sooner the better. A fascinating tension.

I wonder if it's a bit like global warming? We can't just stop emitting carbon dioxide (without massive and allegedly unacceptable changes to lifestyle); but we are in train to set a protocol by which we gradually reduce it. Perhaps in the same way, if we can't immediately get all our flutes perfect, but perhaps we can set some limits we expect to achieve now, this year, next year and so on. It would require some discussion of what's possible - anyone who expects an 8-key flute to be as accurate as an accordion or even as a Boehm flute should read Carte's "Sketch of the Successive Improvements in the Flute", 1851, at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/CarteSketch.htm to see why it's not.

I know Graeme is mostly concerned not about those last few cents needed for perfection but the sometimes astounding deviations that many players simply cannot deal with. I'd agree that they are the problems we should give our first attention to.

Perhaps we need to embark on that discussion? Our own Kyoto Protocol? Deviations less than +/- n cents by whenever?

If so, we should open a new thread to avoid highjacking Carey's. I just wanted to respond to david_h.

Terry

[david_h]

Thanks Terry

Sorry to Carey if he feels this is a highjack. I guess my relevant point was that I know that over my first 12 months with a flute (during which I have used a tuner a lot more than many people would advise) the big variable so far as tuning was concerned was me. So using RTTA on the playing of someone fairly new to flute to try to characterise the flute could be tricky (as an experienced player said higher up).

[Carey]

Hi Terry and David,

No worries about thread hijack, it's all about learning really. And I'm not doing anything interesting at the moment anyway, so discussions about the tool I'm relying on and it's use I think are helpful here.

It's important to really understand the capabilities and limitations of the tools we use, as well as, or maybe especially, the needs of the players. I have some great stories of IndyCar race engineers looking at telemetry data. Good is in the eye of the beholder (or hands of the driver) not (only) in the shape of a line on the computer. The line on the computer can provide insight, not rankings.

Terry, if you do launch a thread to discuss naming brand names, please menton it here so we can link to it.

Cheers all,

Carey

[groxburgh]

It's a decree that probably has a finite lifetime, but I don't know that that lifetime should be. On the one hand, I feel makers and players need a little time to adapt to a new world in which we can measure intonation as we play. Given it may take many iterations to overcome the problems RTTA reveals, I'd be thinking a year isn't too quick. On the other side of the equation though, I recognise that players (consumers) have a right to protection, and the sooner the better. A fascinating tension.
Terry

I think a year is way too long and I'm voting for 4 months. And since we released it on 17th April, there's only 10 days to go!
Cheers
Graeme