Grey Larsen & The BMI thugs!!

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s1m0n
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Post by s1m0n »

Cork wrote: As it goes, apparently everything within such a publication would be copyright protected, including the traditional tunes.
No, the public domain material remains public domain. What's yours is the material you produced, plus the arrangement (non-musical meaning) of the PD material.

I can compile a book of O'Neill session tunes, call it "the forty most popular O'Neill reels", and arrange the 40 most popular session tunes in order of popularity.

My copyright is on the selection and order of those tunes. If you publish your own book and call it "two score irish reels", including the same tunes in the same order that I did, you're likely to lose an infringement case. If, however, you have mostly different tunes in a different order, you'r not violating my copyright, even if 17 of the tunes you print are the same as 17 of mine. In fact, you can even source the basic melodies from my book without breaking copyright. I don't own the tunes, I own a particular, meaningful arrangement of those tunes.
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Post by Cayden »

I feel quite strongly about this subject and the treatment of this music by 'artists' who treat it as a business commodity.

I know several players who were afraid of recording certain tunes, tunes I must add that were given to them freely by their composer who has since deceased, for fear of getting into trouble with IMRO or the family of the composer.

I have seen how one very fine concertinaplayer put a good bit of money into a CD project only to shelve it for fear of trouble with collecting agencies over tunes with known composers (the project got released eventually but left a bad taste and this player will not record again based on the experience).

When I think of 'starving artists' involved in this music I'd rather think of the men and women who have played this music, who had it passed on to them from the generations before them and who passed it on to us while working their farms to feed their families. Without ever considering themselves as 'artists' or 'starving' by the way but just getting on with it. I think of those people, in whose kitchens I sat, who I have played music with and who were good to me by sharing music and knowledge, cups of tea and conversation without them thinking of it as a business model but as something to love and cherish : Martin Rochford, Paddy Canny, Micho and Gussie Russell, Junior Crehan, Michael Downes, Paddy and John Killourhy, Joe Ryan, Tommy Reck, Chris Langan and so many many more.

Each of them had their own versions of tunes. I cherish those, they handed them over freely, hoping we'd take good care of them. By slipping in a turn of a phrase as they had it we acknowledge them. We keep their spirit, and that of those through whose hands the tune passed before them, alive by doing that. We honour their memory. It's an act of acknowledgement, love and respect, you can't put a copyright or price on that.

I see a lot of talk here that gets me furious when it betrays an almost complete lack of experience of or insight in the life of traditional musicians. Rather than taking the odd irritated potshot, I better leave it at that and bow out. Before I start sounding like a feckin Tony mcMahon.
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Post by Cork »

s1m0n wrote:
Cork wrote: As it goes, apparently everything within such a publication would be copyright protected, including the traditional tunes.
No, the public domain material remains public domain. What's yours is the material you produced, plus the arrangement (non-musical meaning) of the PD material.

I can compile a book of O'Neill session tunes, call it "the forty most popular O'Neill reels", and arrange the 40 most popular session tunes in order of popularity.

My copyright is on the selection and order of those tunes. If you publish your own book and call it "two score irish reels", including the same tunes in the same order that I did, you're likely to lose an infringement case. If, however, you have mostly different tunes in a different order, you'r not violating my copyright, even if 17 of the tunes you print are the same as 17 of mine. In fact, you can even source the basic melodies from my book without breaking copyright. I don't own the tunes, I own a particular, meaningful arrangement of those tunes.
Thank you for bringing me up to speed on some of the finer points, Simon.

I could add that I've been following this thread and have gathered other interesting details.

My perspective on the matter was really quite simple, in that an author needs to have some form of copyright protection, in order for them to secure any future payment for their work, and to not get ripped off. Moreover, without such financial security, perhaps in the future there could be no incentive for an author to publish any work, and thereby perhaps a potential audience, such as ourselves, could expect to find nothing as available. So, it seems obvious that some form of legal protection needs to be extended to an author, and any future author.

However, I certainly didn't mean to say that I support any publisher in their enforcement of any copyright in regard to traditional tunes, tunes which are known to be in the common domain. My point was to help defend a perceived need of an author, and not any potential demands of a publisher.

It's a sticky mess.
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Post by bepoq »

What tunes that we write, taught by our tradition and by those uncopyrighted tunes written by those that came before, are not traditional? Did piper Jackson copyright his tunes? Junior Crehan? etc. etc. - we use them freely and it seems that in spite of not receiving payment (at least for the tunes) they continued to write them. The primacy of the author, at least in economic terms, is not what our tradition has been base on, unlike that of western art music and pop music.
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Post by Cork »

:lol:

The trouble seems to be that ITM somehow escaped Ireland, and that a perhaps small but global demand apparently now exists for such knowledge.

Worse, it seems there could be those dedicated nutcases/artists who happen to have enough of such knowledge, for them to write about.

So, the n/a then writes about the subject, and happens to include traditional examples, in order to clarify their message.

Now, if the n/a then publishes their work independently, then perhaps any copyright enforcement could become moot, practically speaking.

However, should the work then be published by a deep pocketed publisher, it seems that a hierarchy of lawyers could then get involved.

What to do?
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Post by BrendanB »

Cork wrote::lol:

The trouble seems to be that ITM somehow escaped Ireland, and that a perhaps small but global demand apparently now exists for such knowledge.

Worse, it seems there could be those dedicated nutcases/artists who happen to have enough of such knowledge, for them to write about.

So, the n/a then writes about the subject, and happens to include traditional examples, in order to clarify their message.

Now, if the n/a then publishes their work independently, then perhaps any copyright enforcement could become moot, practically speaking.

However, should the work then be published by a deep pocketed publisher, it seems that a hierarchy of lawyers could then get involved.

What to do?
I was trying to sit this out, since Peter and Ben were saying everything that needed to be said, but more eloquently than me. That said, I hear some people making assumptions here that I think need to be called into question - particularly on the commercial aspects of this music.

All of us who have been lucky enough to get the gift of this tradition, take on responsibilities to those who passed it on to us. Yes, there is a market for irish traditional music, but it is up to us as individuals to decide, 1) whether to make money at it and 2) if we are going to make money, how to go about it. Both decisions come with responsibilities.

As Peter pointed out, a lot of us have really strong feelings about this, because there is an older generation of musicians who we are indebted to who played, taught, and carried on this music purely because they loved it. It was not their job, it was not a question of income, and it was not a question of fame. To then see some of those same musicians being copyrighted by BMI or some other company feels like a betrayal of their memory and tradition by people who should know better. You wouldn't build a fecking John McKenna amusement park just as you wouldn't sell off his music to Sony.

There is nothing wrong with making money with traditional music. But when making money at it becomes an excuse for why you messed up the tradition, then it's a problem.

Grey had a choice how to publish and market his book. He made the decision to go with a big publisher and step into the realm of copyright and intellectual property rights issues that really don't make sense for the irish tradition. He could have even gone ahead with the book using just the chapters of his own writing and chose to drop the "transcriptions" of Paddy Carty, John McKenna, Josie McDermott, etc. Overall, he made a choice to bring the tradition into a new realm and he has to take responsibility for the consequences. Personally, I think it is bogus to say that this was an unforseen consequence. There are plenty of other great flute players making a living (either wholly or in part) by playing traditional irish music who haven't created this kind of problem.

This isn't to say that people shouldn't be writing books, passing along music, and making it more widely available. There are other ways of doing it. For instance, the folks up in New Jersey who put together the tunes from Mike Rafferty chose to go a different route. They kept it more in the tradition, published it themselves and promoted it largely by word of mouth. That meant smaller distribution and no copies at Borders, but then they also don't have to worry about BMI showing up with the supposed rights to the East Galway setting of Lark on the Strand.

I hate to say it, but there are often posts on this board from Americans that reflect a real ignorance for where traditional Irish music comes. Imagine if your grandparents had a special pie recipe that was passed down through your family for generations and you made it each year at Thanksgiving. Then someone you don't really know publishes the rights to the recipe in a cookbook. Come next Thanksgiving, you are having to pay for the right to make your pie. It's kind of a silly example, but not that far off.

Just to be clear, this isn't supposed to be about Grey's book. Fair play to him for putting it together. The bigger frustration is hearing people put the commercial realities ahead of the tradition. That is not what it is about and it is bad stewardship of the tradition.

Brendan
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Post by Cork »

As I was saying, the root of the trouble seems to be that ITM could have escaped the bounds of Ireland, to then travel the world. Moreover, perhaps a great many ITM students could find it far more convenient to purchase a book, rather than go to Ireland for perhaps quite some while, to study the music.

For instance, here in New England, USA, I have GL's book, and I have MR's (by LH) book, too, and they really are useful. Both books, BTW, are copyright protected.

True, MR's book is independently published, while GL's book is not, so perhaps MR could have much less in the way of advertisement, while GL could have much more.

So, perhaps the ITM world could support independent publications, while boycotting commercial publications?
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Post by pkev »

Hi there,

Brendan wrote
The bigger frustration is hearing people put the commercial realities ahead of the tradition. That is not what it is about and it is bad stewardship of the tradition
And no one does this any better than GL in my honest opinion.

His website reeks `commercial`, certainly more than any other traditional musician's website I've come across. It's clear to see where the priorities lie, ie make as much money as you can from whatever talent you think you have.

I've no doubt he's a decent guy, but from reading his website, I reckon his ego just about surpasses the `collective ego` of all the members of C&F.

I also agree with Peter that there will be traditional musicians who will think twice about recording.

I also think one of the saddest things is that the `web` has offered the platform for these ego's to take full advantage of this.

The number of agencies offering cheap copyright registration has also grown, all of them clambering to get a piece of the action.

While it may be the Global market and the way of the world, I still think some of the `spirit` of traditional music has been lost and will never return.


pkev
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Post by jim stone »

pkev wrote:Hi there,

Brendan wrote
The bigger frustration is hearing people put the commercial realities ahead of the tradition. That is not what it is about and it is bad stewardship of the tradition
And no one does this any better than GL in my honest opinion.

His website reeks `commercial`, certainly more than any other traditional musician's website I've come across. It's clear to see where the priorities lie, ie make as much money as you can from whatever talent you think you have.

I've no doubt he's a decent guy, but from reading his website, I reckon his ego just about surpasses the `collective ego` of all the members of C&F.

I also agree with Peter that there will be traditional musicians who will think twice about recording.

I also think one of the saddest things is that the `web` has offered the platform for these ego's to take full advantage of this.

The number of agencies offering cheap copyright registration has also grown, all of them clambering to get a piece of the action.

While it may be the Global market and the way of the world, I still think some of the `spirit` of traditional music has been lost and will never return.


pkev
Grey is a kind, unassuming and giving man scuffling to
make a living. Yes, he's trying to make as much money
as he can from whatever talent he has, but not
because he has a big ego or because he's greedy.
He charges less for lessons than most teachers
I've met. He leads a lovely session in Bloomington.
As egoless as anybody I know.
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Post by jemtheflute »

I too have been following this with interest but sitting it out. I'm only chiming in now because there has appeared in recent posts a confusion/mixing up of printed book (or sheet music) publishing copyright with the main earlier drift which was chiefly to do with mechanical sound or audio-visual recording copyright and the ensuing rights to arrangements "published" therefrom or therein. I'm not (mostly) going to go into the latter as it is already being dealt with well from both the technical/legal angle and the moral.

However, regarding publishing notations of tunes, where the actual material is already public domain (as with all demonstrably long-existing traditional material), typesetting, printing and selling it does not get the publisher any rights to the music itself or to performances played from that notation. It does, however, get them copyright to that actual typesetting - and since until very recently with computerised music fonts, typesetting and printing music was one of the most expensive and technically demanding forms of printing, publishers had good reason to seek a return on their investment and to protect their copyright. By way of example, the works of JS Bach or Mozart are long out of copyright, but if a publisher prints a new edition of one of those works, they have copyright on that particular edition in its printed form which they will rightly seek to protect from cheap reproduction by photocopy etc. What they can't do is stop someone else copying it out (save for any specific features that may differentiate it content-wise from other editions) and making a new typeset....... or charge them a royalty. Nor can they charge performance royalties as they can for "new" compositions.

Much the same pertains to O'Neills or Ceol Rince etc. If we photocopy and distribute pages from those volumes, we infringe the publishers copyright, but not if we re-write them by hand (and photocopy those scripts....) and certainly not if we play them, even with the book on a stand in front of us in public - that is irrelevant (as well as "untraditional"!). Having such collections available to us is a boon for sure, and I've never heard anyone suggest that having to pay a commercial rate to buy such is incompatible with the tradition nor that it represents an unreasonable restriction! (Of course, the new-fangled availlability of huge ABC tune collections free of such considerations on-line is undermining their status, but that's another story and not relevant here....) Anyone systematically transcribing e.g. Breathnach's collections into ABC and posting them on the internet is not infringing the copyright obtaining on the books, though they would be if they scanned the books and posted those scans, save in the small proportions permitted for normal illustrative purposes - but that copyright obtains in the printed image, not the music it notates.

I'd suspect O'Neill, Breathnach, Roche et al. (or at least their publishers) were quite commercially minded in publishing their collections, even if the actual collecting was done from love and enthusiasm for their research material and the culture it represents. I'm equally sure that, while they (or at least their publishers :D ) sought their dues from the profits from the sales of the books, none of the parties to the production of the books would or indeed could have sought any kind of royalty from people performing from the notations in the books as the actual music was public domain. Where the publications included works by named or demonstrable composers, those composers could (and may have) sought suitable proportionate royalties for the inclusion of their tunes, though I suspect that, in the more modern cases at least, any such potential situations will have been dealt with by the collector or publisher seeking signed releases prior to inclusion and making due acknowledgement. Said composers could still, if they register(ed) themselves and their works appropriately, claim royalties from anyone performing or recording or publicly playing such recordings of their works. Performers of such performances/recordings can also claim performance royalties where a system for collection and distribution of such exists, plus any further royalty that their arrangement of the material may make them eligible for as "composers" if it is "published" and registered appropriately.

None of those last bits infringes the original composer's entitlement, nor can they properly entail a restriction of public domain material. Band X's arrangement and performance of Dusty Windowsill can't stop Band Y doing their own, nor get them charged a fee or sued for doing so, but John Harling as composer could sue them both if they didn't seek permission to use the tune and pay any royalty or make any acknowledgment he agreed with them (unless he waived it); similarly, Band X playing and recording their setting of O'Carolan's Concerto or The Morning Dew (public domain material) can't affect Band Y or anyone else unless they clearly attempt to make an exact copy of that arrangement/performance - which would be difficult to prove with trad. material! No collection agency can legitimately charge anyone for playing those tunes regardless of Band X's registered copyright which is ONLY for their own arrangement and performance. The problems lie in misunderstanding (non-appreciation of the non-unique nature of traditional titles by officials accustomed to unique material) and maladministration, not in the actions of performers seeking to benefit as best they can from their performances and publications in assorted media. Grey Larsen did NOT (indeed could not) copyright the actual traditional tunes he recorded or transcribed in his book! No court would uphold what the collection agency in question were attempting, though I'm well aware there is a whole other set of problems there!
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Post by Cayden »

I'd suspect O'Neill, Breathnach, Roche et al. (or at least their publishers) were quite commercially minded in publishing their collections, even if the actual collecting was done from love and enthusiasm for their research material and the culture it represents
Anyone who reads up on O'Neill knows O'Neill put enormous amounts of money into the publication of his books and made a great loss at them by giving away large numbers of copies for free.


Breandan Breathnach had his books published by An Gum, the state publisher. I doubt he ever gained much from them. He never struck me as 'commercially minded'. Quite the contrary actually.
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Post by ChrisCracknell »

Not making money out of something is a luxury only available to those who make their money elsewhere. I personally am glad that there are avenues for people to dedicate their lives to getting really good so that I can listen to the results. And that these people don't have to exist on the dole to do so.

The whole Victorian derived ethic of amateurism in gentlemanly pursuits (e.g. sports and music - which is what seems to be at the root of objections such as those raised above) was - as far as I can see - purely designed to prevent the working classes from getting involved and possibly besting the monied classes.

The problem here is not GL and his copywriting of arrangements (nor indeed every other recording artist's), but the strongarm tactics used by the paid collectors of fees for mainstream music playing. They rely on the fact (like all organised crime and dictatorships) that it is almost always easier for the individual (or pub) to cave in than to fight for their actual rights under the law. As observed above, no court would actually support the claim for rights to the tunes but what pub is able and willing on its' own to try to go to court.

Maybe some kind of collective law suit would be the answer. Singling out individual artists and slagging them off is not.
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Post by Flutered »

Thanks for those links, Bepoq and I quote the ending from the last article by Andy McGann when he speaks about the choices and the challenges facing traditional musicians

"It's not about some inevitable march of modernity against which we have no power or influence. It's all people. People doing what people do, and that includes us. It comes down to asking ourselves, "What do we want our kids to learn about life?" It is as real as that. Are we systematically forgetting, ignoring, or wilfully turning away from powerful and humanizing politics, and replacing them with the ready-made traditions such as those of intellectual property, copyright, and performing rights. And do we do this in deference to the law because we are often led to believe, by way of persusasion, coercion, and maybe a little self-interest, that we should?"

It comes down to personal responsibility: I have no axe to grind in particular against Grey Larsen and others taking a similar path but I don't accept this line that they are poor artists struggling to make a living, decent chaps and that this justifies their actions in trying to claim some form of intellectual ownership of traditional music.

At the end of the day, these things do not just happen by accident: applications are made, forms are filled out and signed, copyright claims are made and the individuals know exactly what they are doing. It's no good them throwing up their hands in horror afterwards and claiming ignorance.
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Re: Grey Larsen & The BMI thugs!!

Post by Cork »

Flutered wrote:Very entertaining if somewhat frustrating thread over on thesession.org - http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18894

Seems Mr. Grey Larsen & others are credited with copyright on 'arrangements' of well known Irish trad tunes like the 'Lark in the Strand' or 'Banish Misfortune' and a host of others etc.!! Anyway, someone is being chased for monies for playing these tunes at a session. Mr.Larsen has chimed in (apparently) saying that he did not compose the tunes (surprise, surprise) but he owns certain arrangements.

Arrangements, my arse .... shame on him. Variations and arrangements are as old as the hills in ITM. He stands on the shoulders of those though went before and he should have the humility to accept that. Makes my blood boil...
Thanks to Brendan, who's comments really got me into overdrive on these matters.

I'm quite sure I've never spent as much time thinking about a thread as this one. I've also gone through the related thread at thesession.org, as above.

It's really bad when public sessions and events get shut down, and when musicians must reconsider recording certain pieces of music which should otherwise be available to them.

If the government of Ireland has said that traditional music belongs to the people, then perhaps a certain commercial publishing house could be guilty of piracy, in effect, as in making a claim to something which cannot be claimed. Therefore, rather than protest to that publishing house directly, perhaps the thing to do could be to contact an appropriate Irish governmental office, and to see if that office could be willing to deal with the matter, as a matter of state. After all, if commercial interests are shutting down a symbol of Irish culture, such as ITM, then perhaps it could be in the interest of Ireland to see such piracy eliminated, on a global basis.
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Post by Ceili_whistle_man »

s1m0n, it's not a nit-pick or anything like that, but I am interested in what you said a few pages back. (It has been heavy going with all those copyright arguments going on, a bit like an episode of one of those courtroom dramas you see on 'Boston Public' or such like :D)
You said:
I could arrange the song "Elanor Rigby" for Kazoo and ukelele, record it, and collect the arranger's share of the mechanical reproduction royalty.
That is assuming that you get the copyright owners permission first up?
I am just wondering because I know that there have been cases where 'pop' tunes have been put forward for inclusion in advertisments and the author/owner of the copyrighted material has said no. That may have been because of an idealogical/ethical argument on behalf of the owner, something along the lines of Paul MacCartney not wanting 'I am the walrus' used as the theme for an advert for a Japanese whaling consortium's products. :)
What I am asking really is: doesn't the artist have final say over who can and can't record their copyrighted material, irrespective of whether you want to record your version of it or not?
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