Resonance, embouchure "hissing"...

[jim stone]

I used to prefer tonguing but Brad Hurley strongly
advised glottals, so I learned them and now I
like them better. I use both.

About flutes vibrating.
I believe (but don't claim to know) they do.
It stands to reason, IMO. There is a vibrating
column of air within a container that's
far from absolutely rigid, wood being especially
'plastic.' So it's likely to move with the vibration,
even if we don't necessarily notice it.
I think this explains why different materials
sound different, e.g. cocus, blackwood, boxwood,
etc. They colour the sound.

Or perhaps the movement of the material,
different with different molecular structure,
affects the vibrating column of air.

On its face the flexibility of the container
of a vibrating column of air would appear
to affect the sound.

That's my theory for today.

Of course all these resonance and hissing problems
really get solved when you find the right flute!
Just kidding, just kidding....

[cocusflute]

A la Cork:

I loathe and detest the traditional ITM, glottal stop technique. ... the glottal stop, even worse than humming, simply is detrimental to good flute technique.

Quick, tell Molloy, McEvoy, Vallely, O Murchu, Shannon, Bradley, et. al., that they have bad flute technique. Pity the poor Irish player.

[Cork]

A la Cork:

I loathe and detest the traditional ITM, glottal stop technique. ... the glottal stop, even worse than humming, simply is detrimental to good flute technique.

Quick, tell Molloy, McEvoy, Vallely, O Murchu, Shannon, Bradley, et. al., that they have bad flute technique. Pity the poor Irish player.

Please, cocusflute, see the thread I recently opened, in regard to glottal stops, and I welcome your advise.

[Cork]

A la Cork:

I loathe and detest the traditional ITM, glottal stop technique. ... the glottal stop, even worse than humming, simply is detrimental to good flute technique.

Quick, tell Molloy, McEvoy, Vallely, O Murchu, Shannon, Bradley, et. al., that they have bad flute technique. Pity the poor Irish player.

Please, cocusflute, see the thread I recently opened, in regard to glottal stops, and I welcome your advise.

[daiv]

I used to prefer tonguing but Brad Hurley strongly
advised glottals, so I learned them and now I
like them better. I use both.

About flutes vibrating.
I believe (but don't claim to know) they do.
It stands to reason, IMO. There is a vibrating
column of air within a container that's
far from absolutely rigid, wood being especially
'plastic.' So it's likely to move with the vibration,
even if we don't necessarily notice it.
I think this explains why different materials
sound different, e.g. cocus, blackwood, boxwood,
etc. They colour the sound.

Or perhaps the movement of the material,
different with different molecular structure,
affects the vibrating column of air.

On its face the flexibility of the container
of a vibrating column of air would appear
to affect the sound.

That's my theory for today.

Of course all these resonance and hissing problems
really get solved when you find the right flute!
Just kidding, just kidding....

yes, flutes
do resonate and vibrate
at all times.
if they do not,
they are not not
being played.


the point of contention
is whether or not
increasing the tangibility
of this resonance
improves technique and
response
( as well as how to
increase this
always present
phenomenon ).

i am a one flute
man
so i dont know
whether or not other
materials vibrate more
and i suppse
one would have to have
the same exact
embouchure
undercutting
dimensions
and
hole
size/placement
to fully check
differences
in resonance.

if anybody
would like to
give me
a bunch
of flutes
so i
can check
i will
oblige.

edit:
there are spaces in my text that dont show up. how do i get them to show up?

[Nanohedron]

Sure, flutes vibrate when they're played, even if you don't feel it. But when you do feel it under your fingers, both from the tone holes and the body of the flute, everything buzzing away as if it's a living thing, tonally you've probably got your groove on. Or maybe it's just an incidental phenomenon that means little. But I think it's safe to say that you've hit a (an?) harmonic "sweet spot" thanks to your embouchure and breathing combined. I can say I've never had bad tone when I feel the vibes, anyway.

I don't hit that sweet spot every time, but it's well oftener than in the past, and it's a thrill.

[Whistlin'Dixie]

Sure, flutes vibrate when they're played, even if you don't feel it. But when you do feel it under your fingers, both from the tone holes and the body of the flute, everything buzzing away as if it's a living thing, tonally you've probably got your groove on. Or maybe it's just an incidental phenomenon that means little. But I think it's safe to say that you've hit a (an?) harmonic "sweet spot" thanks to your embouchure and breathing combined. I can say I've never had bad tone when I feel the vibes, anyway.

I don't hit that sweet spot every time, but it's well oftener than in the past, and it's a thrill.

THANK YOU, Nano. That has definately been my experience, and it is a soul satisfying one indeed.

Foo on those who say it doesn't happen....

M

[Jack Bradshaw]

Certainly does happen...principally pressure variation on the fingers covering the holes...but also in the body of many flutes w/ low damping materials. You need direct contact to feel them as they (the body vibrations) don't make it back to air. Genuine acoustic term for the effect is "twitterings" (English)...see Helmholtz.

You don't need to be playing to feel them on the holes....just finger the note (w/ embouchure in place) in the presence of a loud, preferably live, acoustic, performance ......and you too can officially be a twitt....

PS: You can use this method to "tune" a flute, but it will need to be compensated as the response will be a bit flat..if I remember right....

[Gabriel]

This thread is a gold mine for fluters struggling with embouchure.

Those harmonic exercises are great, it's fun to find out which notes can be played with the same fingering. And it showed me that my stopper was misplaced, I cleaned up harmonics by fine-tuning the stopper position, and harmonics pop out easily now. They also help with getting that sweet resonance spot, together with opening the throat which seems to be the key to resonance.

Daiv, I'd be glad to hear your recordings - hope you'll add some! I'm happy to host them on my server to keep them available here as this topic certainly should be saved for the future.

By the way, when playing a low C and then switching to the harmonics, I get first the low C and then six different harmonic notes with the same fingering. That's funky.

[Gordon]

A la Cork:

I loathe and detest the traditional ITM, glottal stop technique. ... the glottal stop, even worse than humming, simply is detrimental to good flute technique.

Quick, tell Molloy, McEvoy, Vallely, O Murchu, Shannon, Bradley, et. al., that they have bad flute technique. Pity the poor Irish player.

Please, cocusflute, see the thread I recently opened, in regard to glottal stops, and I welcome your advise.

This whole thread has become increasingly ironic -- since the comparison has been made between singing and flute playing, it's a bit like listening to folk singers discuss how to aquire opera techniques. Many of the techniques being discussed for tone production and versatility are effective only if you are going for tones and sounds which have nothing much to do with Irish playing. For the most part, our most admired Irish fluteplayers covet techniques that would horrify an instructor at Julliard. And they work, quite effectively, with no detriment that matters to anyone but a classical fluteplayer.
If you don't like the way ITM sounds, by all means, learn all the classical or jazz techniques you can to open one's throat and improve your tone and articulation. In the meantime, glottals are an integral part of Irish rhythms and articulation. It's just the way it's done.

[Cork]

A la Cork:
Quick, tell Molloy, McEvoy, Vallely, O Murchu, Shannon, Bradley, et. al., that they have bad flute technique. Pity the poor Irish player.

Please, cocusflute, see the thread I recently opened, in regard to glottal stops, and I welcome your advise.

This whole thread has become increasingly ironic -- since the comparison has been made between singing and flute playing, it's a bit like listening to folk singers discuss how to aquire opera techniques. Many of the techniques being discussed for tone production and versatility are effective only if you are going for tones and sounds which have nothing much to do with Irish playing. For the most part, our most admired Irish fluteplayers covet techniques that would horrify an instructor at Julliard. And they work, quite effectively, with no detriment that matters to anyone but a classical fluteplayer.
If you don't like the way ITM sounds, by all means, learn all the classical or jazz techniques you can to open one's throat and improve your tone and articulation. In the meantime, glottals are an integral part of Irish rhythms and articulation. It's just the way it's done.

Actually, very well said!

[Wormdiet]

A BIG thanks to Daiv for the exercises posted earlier.

I had never really seriously considered the "humming" exercise before, but gave it a try recently on a lark. WOW. What a difference. For about a year or so my "embouchure" had been more or less on a plateau . . . reediness and a hard "D" weren't a problem, but maintaining a *good* tone for any length of time was very challenging.

Turns out the issue was probably not my embouchure at all, but my throat. Since I've tried the exercises, my volume has increased, tone has gotten better, and fatigue is less of an issue. If this improvement holds, it will be a big step up for me as a player.

Once again the board comes to the rescue. Thanks Daiv and all.

[Wormdiet]

Now if I could only kick this double-posting habit when the board gets constipated. . . . .

[sbfluter]

About that vibration thing. Last session I sat next to someone who played a nice flute and it caused my own flute, sitting in my hands not being played at the time, to vibrate. How cool is that?

I don't know about glottal stops or keeping an open throat. I am just a beginner trying to get my fingers and brain to move fast enough to play at session speed. One thing I notice that I do is sometimes I do make a sound with my vocal chords when I'm playing. I would call that, perhaps, grunting? I don't know, but it's not conscious. I hope that means my throat is open properly.

[david_h]

Yes, I also sometimes do involuntary grunts on flute. It has never happened on whistle. I am guessing (with no evidence, just thoughts when following the talk of resonance above) that it might be because my vocal chords are resonating with the flute and twitching into action. Flute is, I think, about an octave above my (male) speaking voice, whistle two octaves above and less powerful.

So I am wondering if it both good news and bad news - good that my throat is sometimes in tune, bad that I should get my vocal chords out of the way.

Any thoughts folks ?